Barley Malt vs. Barley Seed

[fizzix]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the difference between barley malt and barley seed.
Some of the seed posts have me worried whether seed is safe to use, but there's only allusion.

The seed is not malted, of course, but is it usually treated in preservatives, pesticides, and fungicides?
Must it be color dyed indicating so, or is that arbitrary?
A failed mash is one thing, but a potential toxic seed & malt cocktail is a whole other ball game.

Thanks~
fizzix

[Fiddleford]

What does the package you get it in look like
Another member might be able to recognized the bag and say if its good or not
I know some members have to purchase their mashing needs online and others are lucky enough to live around farms

[fizzix]

Thanks for dropping by, Fiddleford~
No particular bag ---more a generality question.
Would it be as simple as looking at the ingredients if I were perusing a particular package?

[Fiddleford]

Its more about where you plan on shopping, for example at a farming/feeds store they are going to generally sell something an animal is able to eat that in turn we will eat.
If you buy your seed/grain from a landscaping business its more likely it will have more toxic elements.
Yes you could look at the contents of what you are buying and ingredients and if you can't find them ask your supplier if they are aware of anything unsafe, I'll usually ask if it will make me Ill if I eat it or make beer from it
Another thing to try and notice is any warning labels, due to past use of pesticides if a product contains on of these elements it will legally have to make the buyer aware
I'm sorry if I again missed your question but new developments in the north has made a lot of Canadians.. uhh, slower and congrats on your almost 2018th post

[fizzix]

Thanks, pal!
Yeah this city boy's rural experience is having driven past a farm once or twice, and I have seen them on TV, so your info is very helpful.

[Fiddleford]

No problem Fizzix, glad to help
A little helper tip here for you, if there are people who own horses or any livestock for that matter around the outskirts of town you could probably find a feeds store around, if you cant find a store ask the livestock owners where they get their grains with the "I got chickens" line, your wallet may thank you

[still_stirrin]

fizzix,

I live in a rural area. And being raised on a farm, to me “seed” is exactly that....treated to plant in the ground. And here, seed grains are ALWAYS treated in preparation for planting. It includes pesticides, so weevils don’t get into the grain seeds and consume the germ, and sometimes even growth stimulant to “superchage” germination.

Processing seed grains is relatively expensive and will triple (or more than) increase the bulk price of the grains. But, seed grains be-it corn, wheat, barley, rye, oats, alfalfa, or even sunflowers, are dyed when treated. It is to indicated that the grains have been treated and are VERY poisonous.

Now, often times the non-farmers here talk of “raw grains” as seed grains. To me, raw grain is not malted or treated. It is the grains as harvested from the fields. Or, it could be the grains as sold in the local whole foods store. They are clean and not processed other than cleaning to remove the dust.

Typically animal feed grains are in this category too. The grains may be rolled to crush the husks (barley is a good example of this) so they can be easier to digest by animals that eat the raw grains.

Finally, “malted grains” such as malted barley like you buy from the local homebrew store have been malted, that is - germinated to convert the carbohydrates to starch so your brewing process can convert the starches available to fermentable (and non-fermentable) sugars.

The malting process is expensive and when done commercially, requires specialized equipment to control the moisture, temperature and drying time, kilning temperature, etc. to optimize the process for the desired malt quality.

So, I use this nomenclature when talking about cereal grains to avoid confusion. But the “seed vs raw grain” terms still create confusion among those who don’t subscribe to the nomenclature understaning presented here. But then again, as you’ve noted, not everyone has the same perspective of “the farm industry” as I do....it’s one man’s opinion.
ss

[fizzix]

still_stirrin, don't ever leave Home Distiller.
Your expertise once again has shone through the muck of my ignorance.

I'd also imagine "raw" to be rather grassy, too. But have only seen 1 post addressing that.

[HDNB]

regarding raw grains being grassy, i have been modifying my rye recipe over time from hi cereal/low malt to the last batches have gone completely malt.
as the cereal level decreases the grassiness of the white beverage decreases.
barrel aging either covers up grassy or it esterfies into something more palatable.

yes it is more expensive, but it is much easier to mash and the yield has gone up pound for pound. the flavour is much better in both white and barreled.

organic cereal rye is 12.50/bu (about 50lbs)here, malt rye is 38.00/55lbs but reduced work and reduced energy plus increased yield and flavour balance the money beam.

i'm moving away from COBB to all malt with barley too, for the same reasons.

[GCB3]

Fix
This is a timely thread for me. I just mashed my 2nd AG yesterday. A friend of mine, who like S-S, has been around farming his whole life, suggested I buy plain (unmalted) barley from a feed store. So I bought a 50 lb bag of “seed” barley for $18. I thought I’d hit the lottery compared to brew shop prices. When I asked my friend about seed verses grain, he opined that seed is the precursor to malt so it would be the natural suppliment to a malt grain bill. It is stated on the label as untreated and there is no dye in it. Pic below:

Batch Data

Ingredients

Barley Bag

I think I did a good mash procedure. I did 12lb malted 2 row and 24 lbs of the above, all ground to corn meal consistency, in 17 gal. Since the DP was on the lower end (40) i added liquid alpha enzyme for a little insurance. I managed to hold the rest temp between 146 and 150*F for 90 minutes. Malt and enzyme weren’t added until the mash reached 148*. All the iodine tests showed full conversion. PH was 6. Problem was the OG was 1.038 corrected.

Is it likely that seed barley could be a lower quality than the barley you buy specifically for brewing? OR worse, is it possible there are additives to the seed (while not listed and no dye) that inhibit the conversion (and might be harmful)? It’s always possible (and probable) that the OG is low because I f-ed up!

[GCB3]

First order of business tomorrow morning will be to contact the producer in VA regarding any treatments on this seed barley. Will report back.

[TDick]

fizzix,
I live in a rural area.

+1 on thanks for being here...BOTH of you!

SS, I don't live in a rural area, but it only takes about 10 minutes to get there.
The feed & seed store is halfway there.
I was in last week asking about their wheat. They have both feed & seed, they asked what I was using for and I said to make beer.
They said they don't know about that but the seed wheat is DEFINITELY treated.
So I just carried in the feed and with 4 days of rain coming up I hope to malt some next week.

[GCB3]

Wow, I am so glad you started this, Fizzix! I spoke to a very knowledgeable lady at Hundley Seed Co. She said, using the batch number, that the Secretariat type seed I bought is untreated, hence, no dye. HOWEVER, she could not say whether or not the grower applies any insecticides for storage prior to them receiving the grain. That was more than enough for me to scrap the batch I have fermenting and start over. Thank you also, S-S!!!!

Further, she also said that while she isn’t certain, she didn’t think the Secretariat strain would make a good malting grain. I didn’t go into it all, but, I can tell her for sure that it doesn’t! Last Friday I ran a 17 gal batch (1/3 2Row malt and 2/3 Secretariat) that converted to an SG 1.038, which is only slightly more than the potential in the malt in the recipe. Then after reading Jimbo’s comments about needing high temp gelling for unmalted barley, I did a 1 gal test where I gelatinized the Secretariat and then added in the same proportion of malt and mashed for 90 min. SG=1.032. Again, essentially the potential of the malt. So, I ran another 1 gal using 100% malt (2 lbs). SG 1.059. So, the malt was fine, the seed grain was uncontributing. She’s correct!

She was nice enough to tell me that I should check with Lima Cerials in Ft. Collins, CO for malting grains. She was not sure if they sell to the public. Two barleys she suggested for malting are named Calypso or Violetta.

I’m cured from seed barley and “experimenting” with Jimbo’s T&T until I can get more experienced.
Thanks for pointing out the need for research in buying barley.

[Jimy Dee]

Folks
This is a great thread. I have been incontact with GCB3 during his trials and tribulations and I have decided I am going to have a go at malting the seed barley grains I purchased from the local agri feed store. In fact the seed grain barley is feed for pigeons, so for any of you city slickers who want to buy seed grain you could look into buying grain for a friends pigeons.
Jimy Dee

[GCB3]

I never got a call back from the company in Colorado. Looking at their website, they are a seed company.

I dumped the mash made from the seed barley just for safety. I then ran a mash of 36 lb of the same malted 2 row used above and 17 gal water. After 90 min rest, SG = 1.067 corrected. I’m going to stick with this approach.
Thanks Jimbo.

[HDNB]

GCB, if you want to buy bags of malt, just go to (call and order) a malting company and tell them you are a small wine store, branching out into beer. lots of HBS's buy a single bag and part it out to their customers for double.
it won't be unusual for them to sell a single bag...but for the price you'll likely take a selection.

pretty lucky here, i just drive over to the neighbors for grain. it's fat and plump and untreated. "farm fresh" i'll pay the guy to 50 to 100% more than he gets at the elevator so he's happy...and it ends up being less than what i pay at the mill, so i'm happy. just gotta take my own bags and be prepared to shovel a bit.

best advice for cereals is make friends with a grain farmer. BTW virtually everything you eat from anywhere is sprayed at some point in it's lifecycle. the only exception is a certified organic source and even they can pick up cross contamination from a neighbor's spraying. of course treated seed is treated...big difference from storage or lifecycle sprayed insecticides and herbicides.

remember... whatever don't kill ya will prolly give you cancer. according to the state of california the leading cause of cancer is being alive. apparently it doesn't bother ded people.

[GCB3]

Funny HDNB!

I did a little research on a number of the malting companies and didn’t see one that will sell to an individual without a producers license. I can buy 2 row malt in 50 lb bags for about $1 a pound. Guess I’ll continue that way while I try to figure out AG. Maybe I can find a more economical source down the road.
Thanks for your input.

[Expat]

BTW virtually everything you eat from anywhere is sprayed at some point in it's lifecycle. the only exception is a certified organic source and even they can pick up cross contamination from a neighbor's spraying. of course treated seed is treated...big difference from storage or lifecycle sprayed insecticides and herbicides.

Unfortunately that isn't true. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/sc ... riculture/