Toasted Corn?

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Bee
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Toasted Corn?

Post by Bee »

Has anyone made any 100% corn whiskey using unmalted, toasted corn? How dark did you toast it? How did it turn out?

I'm thinking of toasting some to about Lovibond 13-17.

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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Demy »

Not for distillation, added only in some beer. It could be interesting, I believe the yield in sugars decreases.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Ben »

Try a small batch, make a "tea" taste it. You will know if you like it right away.

If I were doing it I would put a tray of corn in the cooker, and pull a sample at every few °L of change. Then you can try each and decide what you like or don't. I would be interested to hear your impressions.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Gonzo_distills »

Did you give it a try? Results?
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Wanted to do this either. But I only have already cracked corn, is cracked corn can be roasted?
I don't want to do 100% corn, but use like 60%, with a portion of the corn being roasted.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by rushchaser »

Not sure if you are a fan or not of Jesse on the Still It youtube channel but he did a video on it that I think might give you some ideas/inspiration :D

https://youtu.be/yg4k-5SeQvw
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Evil_Dark »

yeah, that's eactly what gaved me the idea of doing this!
But as I said, I only have cracked corn... Not sure of the result if I roast some cracked cornd instead of whole grains?
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Bee »

I don't think cracked is going to toast very evenly.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Bee »

rushchaser wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:43 am Not sure if you are a fan or not of Jesse on the Still It youtube channel but he did a video on it that I think might give you some ideas/inspiration :D

https://youtu.be/yg4k-5SeQvw
I can't figure out if Jesse toasted plain corn or malted corn. Any clues?
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by bluc »

I think cracked will give you more toasted surface area then whole = more flavour.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

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bluc wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:21 pm I think cracked will give you more toasted surface area then whole = more flavour.
Hmmm make sense.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Bee wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:56 amI can't figure out if Jesse toasted plain corn or malted corn. Any clues?
It seems to me that he had roasted plain corn kernels, unmalted.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Bee »

Evil_Dark wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 11:47 am
Bee wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 6:56 amI can't figure out if Jesse toasted plain corn or malted corn. Any clues?
It seems to me that he had roasted plain corn kernels, unmalted.
Found in the video that he was toasting malted corn.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

Stumbled upon this and was curious if any attempt had been made to toast corn and use it for a whiskey mash and, if so, what were the results?
Also came across a couple older posts that similar questions were posed, but sadly they didn't end up having any updates that gave insight on the flavors you get from doing this.
I'm debating attempting toasting corn and was curious how much it might elevate my bourbon. If nothing else, I'll probably give it a try and report back. My mind is telling me to toast 1/6 of the corn in my bill (64%). I'll probably use corn I already cracked/ground because I just do the entire bag at once when I do. I also like the idea of uneven toasting because I always find myself missing flavors of other toast levels (in my experience with other grains) if I only use one specific toast level. So hopefully can get more complexity this way and the way I figure it, making large batches with uneven toast levels should ultimately provide me a a mostly consistent range/proportions of toast levels from batch to batch.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Evil_Dark »

I also atempted to know what is the result in the final spirit when toasting corn ...
But ended with no answers.
In my case I am kinda newbe with all grains so I decided to start with the normal route before playing with toasting any grains.
I am with the impression that you (and I) should do these tests and share the results, with an attempt to descibe the flavor profiles that results by this.
Good luck and keep us informed!
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

Well, I'll give an early update. Had a change of plans from the original concept/plan I pitched. A short backstory/explanation detour: so almost 5 months back I had stocked up on corn (I buy whole and mill it down) and then my boiler had an accident and fell off the counter which caused a decent amount of damage/warping/bending that would be impractical and futile for me to repair with tools at my disposal, so I took this as my sign to make the size upgrade I had been craving; due to supply chain issues, I never received my new boiler until 4 months after ordering. When I went to mill my corn, even by an awkwardly placed flashlight after dark I was able to confirm my fear that I'd likely find a corn weevil infestation - in the dark I could still notice a good dozen in the first scoop I took (and as I can tell you from prior experience with trying to buy an overly abundant surplus and having a bag sit almost this long, the weevils like to nest and are far more abundant at the bottom of the bag), so I gave this whole bag to the chickens to pick through since I didn't care for more bugs than corn in my first on the grain ferment.

So back to my concept change. Since the old lady on occasion throws more projects at me than I have time for, I wanted to safeguard against future infestations. Since the chest freezer is almost always going to be too full to load with 50lbs of corn for 72 hours to kill eggs, I decided to go a heat heat route to do the job since I want to try toasted corn anyway. Bought a bag today and decided to toast whole so I lessen my odds of over toasting and getting way more unfermentable, caramelized sugars than I care to. Instructions of what I did below. I did this twice to go through the entire 50 lb bag.

Set oven (I have a propane conventional) to 325F.
Set racks to accommodate two large steamer trays.
Filled tray with 12.5 lbs of whole kernel corn each (I know the quantity won't allow for even toasting, but I like my toasted grains to have a variety of toast levels because I like and would miss qualities of toasts I didn't include and I feel it gives the end product more complexity; also, I figure doing this in large batches as I do should give me an adequately consist blend of toasts across batches).
I put the trays in for 20 minutes at a time each cycle., remove to give a quick stir, put back in rotating the rack each tray was placed on, then repeated. There were 4 cycles (80 minutes total).

[Per my research, 140F for 15 minutes should kill any weevil eggs present]

Visually, the kernels didn't appear too different. They were just the slightest oily to the touch, and several hours later my house is still smelling like hot buttery corn on the cob fresh off the grill.

I learned I have plans I had forgotten about over the next week, so won't be able to update my findings again for probably at least two weeks when I start working with it, but I'm excited. I suspect where I have them is going to give me a more rich flavor and I'm predicting a mouthfeel to die for.
I feel confident this will prevent weevil infections if ever left unused that long again and am also confident that with the mildness of the toast, I should see minimal if any impact to my yield.
Can't wait to share more moving forward.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Deplorable »

I was pondering this today on my drive home so I'm going to follow this to see how your experiment goes Avalir.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

Time for an update. Once again, keep in mind this wasn't at all a very heavy toast. And as a disclaimer, this batch was also my largest I've ever attempted - meaning I had to improvise a bit with my mashing process and the size equipment I had available. It was also my first on the grain ferment. So there very well could be too many variables to accredit the differences I noticed solely to the corn. I also utilize toasted oats and wheat.
I'm going to begin stripping tomorrow, so I seporated the grains today and tossed some 2-liters of ice in to try to help settle out all the trub I didn't adequately remove (I work third shift, so I'll start distilling when I get off work). But the aroma of the wash was excellent - very bold and corn forward, it was mouthwatering. This has had 5 days to ferment so far. Specific gravity was 1.005 (after temperature correction), usually it'll land between 0.993-0.997 when I would make this in batches 1/3 the size and using non-toasted corn and fermenting off the grain. I think the issue was likely with trying to gelatinize that much corn (50 lbs) without standing over the stove for an entire day; I'll make tweaks to my process in future batches and hopefully that will give me a dryer ferment, and if not, at least more data to go on with how the toasted corn impacted yield.
I'll put out more info once I've had a chance to distill and get some sleep. I'm sure everyone is more eager to hear about the flavor in the final product, which is what I'm the most excited about.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Thanks for the update!
For sure I want to know whats is the final product taste! :)
I made a 100% corn spirit as a reference for my futures tests like this toasted corn. So I may be able to tell what are the flavors carried over when toasted VS not toasted!
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

So hit some bumps in the road. Didn't think about how my burner is only about 15k btu, so stripping has been a slow process. Then found out one of my animals has worms (probably my biggest irrational fears - I'll fight copperheads, black widows, and hornet nests bare handed, but don't you bring parasitic worms into my house), so I had to call it quits early yesterday to drive all the way into town for dewormer before stores closed. I'm going to have to postpone the spirit run until next week on a day I have off work - I can tell you from experience that a spirit run while more sleep deprived than your comfortable with is a good way to botch or lose the batch, not to mention it's a huge safety hazard.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

I will say though, the low wines do have a nice really bold corn aroma. Minor toasty notes - but this could also have to do with the toasted oats and wheat. Either way, it gives me high hopes on the flavor of the final product. I'm usually a little sad about how mild of a corn flavor I can detect in my whiskey (you'd think a grain that makes up more than half the bill would have a bigger impact), seems like that probably isn't going to be an issue with this - just speculation.

Edit: I forgot to mention - there were also significantly more oils noticed in the low wines, even early on. I'd guess it has something to do with the oils I noticed the corn sweating out when I put it in the oven.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

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An early update because I'm excited. A reminder that the toast I gave the corn was pretty mild - no noticeable color change in the kernels, just enough to make then sweat and very aromatic. Spirit run is underway. I just made it to the early hearts. Tasted a few drops straight off the condenser. I will say the flavor profile doesn't seem to have necessarily changed, but it definitely intensified. Nice bold rich flavors even in the early hearts, increased sweetness, and surprisingly it's remarkably creamy for being so early on. There's also something subtle that I can't quite put my finger on (possibly because I'm tasting off the condenser), it's somewhat toasty and somewhat nutty, but also neither of those descriptions seem right. Maybe I'll identify it better later after it has a chance to rest.
More to come soon.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Dougmatt »

I’ve always considered corn to be the the canvas upon which the small grain flavors are painted. There’s corn flavors (mild) in the early white, but over time corn nuetrals out and the small grains shine through. I’m not sure if / how much toasting will impact that outcome, but interested to hear if it does….
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

Sorry for the delay, was pushing sleep deprivation to an extreme I don't care for by the time I got down to the feints - so I cut the heat off, covered my jars, and ran feints when I woke up and got to making cuts.

So with the minimal toast level I did, I'm not necessarily noticing a difference in the flavor profile. If anything, I think I had a small increase in sweetness and mouthfeel. Not a day and night difference, but it's nice - definitely the best white whiskey I've tasted to date (it's not going to stay white long - already have it on oak).
I guess the best way to think about toasting in the way I did would be similar to roasting spices - more so just amplifies it's features a bit.
The difference may have been larger in the wash (it was definitely more aromatic), but I never bother tasting my wash (bakers yeast makes horrid beer).
This amount of toast didn't seem to impact the dryness of the wash - so I likely didn't caramelize any starches/sugars.
I'm still curious about flavors with a proper toast (one that would cause changes to color), but that probably won't happen in the readily near future. I'll definitely post my findings.
But for the little it added to the final product given that the primary underlying goal of my experiment at this toast level was to kill any weevil eggs that might be present for long-term storage (if it became necessary), I'd say I'm happy and satisfied with the outcome.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

Had to come back to this after the old lady cooked supper and it gave me a better analogy for my results.
A better way to describe the taste would be more like if you add MSG to a dish. There isn't necessarily a change in the actual flavor profile, however there are characteristics that become boosted/elevated.
So did I change the taste profile of my whiskey? No, I didn't.
Did it have slightly more umph and leave me slightly more satisfied with the final product? Yes, I think so.

As a disclaimer: I'm always the harshest critic of what I produce and will be up front and honest with myself when I notice flaws or deterioration in quality from an experiment. That being said, the difference I noticed was very minimal and I didn't taste side by side with a control sample, so this is strictly going by my memories and experience. I don't believe my findings were clouded by high hopes and bias for an improved outcome, but with the minor difference and no control for comparison, I'd just hate to be called a liar if someone recreated this and didn't notice what I did (I usually seem to pick up on various odors and tastes a lot easier than the vast majority of people I've encountered - just imagine how sharp my pallet and senses might be if I wasn't a chain smoker).

In conclusion, I'd say that this isn't the most impactful change you could make to boost flavor, but it's not really any extra time of hands-on labor. And if you ever finding yourself occupied with other projects for a period of time just to return to a weevil infestation like I have, it's at least definitely a good way to kill the weevil eggs on the kernels before they hatch and breed if you don't have freezer space to kill them, and any benefit to flavor/taste from performing this process is just an added bonus in humble opinion.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Evil_Dark »

Thanks for your honest/sharp review and feedback!
It may worth it to reproduce with a slight more roasting/cooking thank you did, just to try to bump up the coocked corn flavors.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

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Thank you sir.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

I'm making preparations for my next batch in which I will have some of the corn more toasted. I still toasted 2 pans at a time with 12.5 lbs of corn each and also at 325. This time I went 45 minutes between stirring and at 3 hours, turned off the oven and let them cool in the oven. There's some beautiful color to a good portion of the corn. I'll try to remember to make updates and get a picture of the corn. But I have about a week more of prep before I'll be ready to mash. Hopefully I can get some noticable flavor differences this time around.
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

Will begin mashing in a couple days. Just grinded my toasted corn. I'll try to attach a photo I took if I can figure it out - I apologize for the poor lighting, I nearly forgot to take a picture so I got a shot of the corn in the grinder hopper with the only light coming in from my outbuilding door window.
A good portion of the corn darkened to a golden brown, still a fair amount of yellow kernels and some a darker brown. The kernels evidently became very brittle and were pulverized to a nice fine grit. The most notable observation was the smell while grinding - it was very buttery and was also reminiscent of carmel corn, it was mouthwatering. Very excited to taste how it turns out and I'll be happy if the yield doesn't fall under 5% (I can usually expect 6-7% with my recipe).
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Re: Toasted Corn?

Post by Avalir »

Quick update: fermentation is coming to an end - I think it may be the best smelling ferment I've had yet. It smelled sweet, creamy, and a little like mini wheats cereal (I used toasted corn, toasted oats, toasted wheat, and vienna malt). Will strain grains tomorrow, strip the following day, and spirit run next week. I'll update again after the spirit run.
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