Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

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rubberduck71
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Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by rubberduck71 »

OK, so for 2 years (or so) now, I've been running A/G batches with GREAT recipes off this HD site. So my question is this: in the "spirit" (see what I did there?) of UJSSM, how many times can you run a sugarhead off an A/G wash?

The reason I ask is that I typically run just 1. Is more a capability?

Thoughts my MD brethren?

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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by Deplorable »

Ive only done 1 sugarhead off of a bourbon mash bill, The grains were pretty spent after the sugarhead ferment. Even the chickens wouldnt eat them.
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by 6 Row Joe »

A dozen or so. 15 or more. Loaded question, many different answers. With UJSSM you collect the spent grain off the top and replace with fresh grain. The spent grain will be pale colored compared to the corn below it.
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by NZChris »

rubberduck71 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:40 pm .... how many times can you run a sugarhead off an A/G wash?
And still get what?

If you are not adding grain you will run out of flavor, which is great if you are running low on neutral. Look after the yeast and nutrients and it should keep going until you make a mistake.
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

6 Row Joe wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:48 pm Loaded question, many different answers.
+1 :thumbup:
Done the right way , UJSSM style the amount of times is limitless.
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I do one sugarhead on an AG but I'll also mash in some more grain of some sort for the sugarhead in addition to sugar as well as backset - in the spirit of a UJ. I save my AG feints for further AG spirit runs and don't waste it on sugarheads... Sugarheads I'll cut narrow for white dog or rapid aging to my dirty mitts off the aging AG and save wide feints for an eventual reflux run...

I prefer AG by far so don't put too much effort into multiple sugarheads but do like to mash in a 5g bucket of quick oats plus perhaps 5-10# of a specialty grain to bump the flavor and mouthfeel on a single sugarhead large batch after an AG. Maybe consider that sorta like a 1.25 sugarhead?

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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by Oatmeal »

Are you converting any of the starches in your oat specialty grains 1.15 sugarhead jonnys_spirit? I've been wondering if adding quick oats can add mouthfeel without converting them?
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I do convert them with enzymes... Just dump boiling water in the 5g bucket and wrap it. Add enzymens once it's down to 150*F and it turns into five gallons of sweet oatmeal - eat a bowl and pitch the rest into the barrel once down to 90*F or so, add sugar & water and it fires off pretty quick.. I might do 10g next time..

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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by IMALOSERSCUMBAG »

I lost count at 12 runs of UJSSM. I likely hit 20 before I switched to new recipes.
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by Bushman »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:17 am I do one sugarhead on an AG but I'll also mash in some more grain of some sort for the sugarhead in addition to sugar as well as backset - in the spirit of a UJ. I save my AG feints for further AG spirit runs and don't waste it on sugarheads... Sugarheads I'll cut narrow for white dog or rapid aging to my dirty mitts off the aging AG and save wide feints for an eventual reflux run...

I prefer AG by far so don't put too much effort into multiple sugarheads but do like to mash in a 5g bucket of quick oats plus perhaps 5-10# of a specialty grain to bump the flavor and mouthfeel on a single sugarhead large batch after an AG. Maybe consider that sorta like a 1.25 sugarhead?

Cheers!
-jonny
My exact thoughts, I love rye so I do an all grain rye and follow it with a corn sugar wash adding more rye but ends up being a bourbon. I also do not go deep into the generations as the rye is pretty spent.
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by DasBeast007 »

I don't have the final answer, but I'm on Gen 7 now. Gen-0 was my AG bourbon recipe (Coochie Hooch). Gen 1 started with the spent grains, added dextrose instead of cane sugar, and backset from the bourbon run to make Coochie's Bastard. Gens 2 and on follow the same except the backset is from the previous sugarhead. I've done slow spirit runs for some generations and I've stripped others hard and fast to save up for a XX run. The flavor profile improves dramatically at or around Gen V with the sour mash(wash).
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by OnceAlive »

Would making a poor job at mashing (getting a low conversion rate) leave the grain as more suitable for supplementary sugar head fermentations?
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by EricTheRed »

I've had one and just did the whole conversion protocol again. Worked
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by OnceAlive »

EricTheRed wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:09 am I've had one and just did the whole conversion protocol again. Worked
I mean, I'm asking if the grain from a mash where a lot of the conversion was not done can be used more times in a sugar head wash versus a grain from a properly converted mash?
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by EricTheRed »

I realized that my conversion on that batch was below par.
So i heated to ht enzyme temp pitched enzymes
Used that as another 'good' run
And the follewed with 2 more sugarheads
Worked fine and output tasted good
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by Ben »

A lot of it depends on what you are doing with your grain mash. If you are in the 90% efficiency range you aren't getting much more out of it, even in just one sugar head. The runnings off of that taste like slightly sweet water. If you are making 60% efficiency you still have a lot of malt sugar and flavor in there to work with.

Could design a mash specifically to be used as a sugar head. Mash, take the first runnings for your main wash and leave the rest behind special for the sugar head. Seems like a waste. I would rather produce a few liters of good AG whisky and do a separate sugar thing.
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

On my second AG ferments I'll now remove (and squeeze) 1/3 to 1/2 of the spent grain and use backset to mash in a bit more grain (sorta like a UJ) then use molasses, panela, and maybe some sugar (depending on how I'm feeling that day) to bump SG to about 10% fermentable abv range perhaps with some pH control of the backset as needed.. good flavor left in the backset and spent grains and since it's a smaller mash with the new grains it's fairly easy after stripping an AG... I'm experimenting with multiple cycles of this and removing/refreshing some of the grain at the moment and I like it... Molasses/panela/sugar ratios depending on the flavor you want but might also use honey at some point...

Cheers!
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by NormandieStill »

Given that when making fruit washes, we talk about not diluting the flavour by adding sugar, I do wonder what effect the size of the sugarhead has on the flavour. That is to say, if your original mash was 30L, would it not be a good idea to make a smaller sugarhead on those same grains (eg.15L)? Or to make a lower abv sugarhead?

Not sure. I'm just throwing the question out there in case it's been explored already.
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Re: Just how many times can you "recycle" grains?

Post by NZChris »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:04 pm Given that when making fruit washes, we talk about not diluting the flavour by adding sugar, I do wonder what effect the size of the sugarhead has on the flavour. That is to say, if your original mash was 30L, would it not be a good idea to make a smaller sugarhead on those same grains (eg.15L)? Or to make a lower abv sugarhead?

Not sure. I'm just throwing the question out there in case it's been explored already.
That has been discussed previously. I use all of the backset, pressings and trub to make it up to about the same potential ABV with sugar and water, but never exceeding the original volume and ABV, then strip it with the foreshots, heads and tails added to the wash. I've even done a third generation when using grapes to make a lightly flavored pot stilled spirit that made very fine gin without having to reflux it to neutral with a column.
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