grain bill

[bez]

how does this look as far as a grain bill (I will be using enzymes for conversions hence why im not using any malted grain)?

68% Corn (34lbs)
15% Rye (7.5lbs)
12% steam flaked barley (6lbs)
5% Toasted rolled oats (2.5lbs)

[Twisted Brick]

Looks good and should make a tasty drop.

Look to grind your corn as close to meal as you can. If you can do a stovetop glucan rest for your rye while your corn converts you will be golden.

[bez]

Looks good and should make a tasty drop.

Look to grind your corn as close to meal as you can. If you can do a stovetop glucan rest for your rye while your corn converts you will be golden.

grinding will be no issues as i have an ebay\amazon grinder. i will have to look into the stovetop glucan rest as im not familiar with it as this is my first AG. im gonna be using the "easy large batch mashing" method.

[Deplorable]

Have you got a pot big enough to put 7.5 pounds of rye and 3 to 3.5 gallons of water? I use a 30-quart SS stock pot. Bring 3.5 gallons of water to 90F and slowly mix in your milled rye. Gradually raise the temperature to 105 to 110F and hold it for 30 to 45 minutes minimum. depending on the thickness of the bottom of your pot and the heat source, stir constantly to prevent a scorch. Don't let the grain rest on the bottom of the pot, or it will scorch.
If you do this as the temperature of your corn, barley, and oats falls, you can time it to add the rye into the rest of the mash at about 150, mix it all in and add your beta amylase.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Deplorable, I really like this step in your process. Very slick, I've been meaning to tell you that.

For the op, however, don't worry about that step for your first time, imo. You got enough to focus on. 15 % shouldn't give you a headache, anyways I don't think. You can try that the next time. It would be probably needed with a 30% rye.

Just follow the ELBM process, and you'll get it.

[bez]

Have you got a pot big enough to put 7.5 pounds of rye and 3 to 3.5 gallons of water? I use a 30-quart SS stock pot. Bring 3.5 gallons of water to 90F and slowly mix in your milled rye. Gradually raise the temperature to 105 to 110F and hold it for 30 to 45 minutes minimum. depending on the thickness of the bottom of your pot and the heat source, stir constantly to prevent a scorch. Don't let the grain rest on the bottom of the pot, or it will scorch.
If you do this as the temperature of your corn, barley, and oats falls, you can time it to add the rye into the rest of the mash at about 150, mix it all in and add your beta amylase.

i have a keg that i can cut the top off of if need be and heat with a propane burner. since im using the "easy large batch mashing" method is the glucan rest a necessity? ive google searched on HD and havent really ran across what the glucan rest actually does.

[bez]

Deplorable, I really like this step in your process. Very slick, I've been meaning to tell you that.

For the op, however, don't worry about that step for your first time, imo. You got enough to focus on. 15 % shouldn't give you a headache, anyways I don't think. You can try that the next time. It would be probably needed with a 30% rye.

Just follow the ELBM process, and you'll get it.

will 15% rye even be noticeable in the mix? these were #'s i kinda just threw down. i dont know what grains bring this or that flavor to the mix. if i should adjust anything please let me know.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Nope, roll it. You got this, looks great. You will defintly know there is rye in there, it ain't shy.

[bez]

Nope, roll it. You got this, looks great. You will defintly know there is rye in there, it ain't shy.

thank you for ALL your info and confidence you have given me! now i just need to find the actual dosing amounts for the sebstar htl and sebamyl gl as the pdfs i have on the 2 dont really give you a use "x" amount per pound of grain.

[bez]

Have you got a pot big enough to put 7.5 pounds of rye and 3 to 3.5 gallons of water? I use a 30-quart SS stock pot. Bring 3.5 gallons of water to 90F and slowly mix in your milled rye. Gradually raise the temperature to 105 to 110F and hold it for 30 to 45 minutes minimum. depending on the thickness of the bottom of your pot and the heat source, stir constantly to prevent a scorch. Don't let the grain rest on the bottom of the pot, or it will scorch.
If you do this as the temperature of your corn, barley, and oats falls, you can time it to add the rye into the rest of the mash at about 150, mix it all in and add your beta amylase.

thank you as well deplorable!

[Deplorable]

Deplorable, I really like this step in your process. Very slick, I've been meaning to tell you that.

For the op, however, don't worry about that step for your first time, imo. You got enough to focus on. 15 % shouldn't give you a headache, anyways I don't think. You can try that the next time. It would be probably needed with a 30% rye.

Just follow the ELBM process, and you'll get it.

Thanks SCD. It's a little tip I got from Twisted Brick actually.
I've done it with all the bourbons I've made so far since I had such a bad experience squeezing my first batch of CROW (which was coincidently my first multi grain mash). Since then I've done a couple of bourbons. 13% (twice) and 21% rye malt. The first one is coming up on a year old and its mighty good. The 21% rye I just put in a Badmo at the beginning of the month. It tasted like it had so much potential that I didn't keep anything more than the glass I blended to toast the success of the run. What didn't fit in the Badmo is on an M3 Oak finger in glass.

[bez]

this forum is my goto, you all are great! i know i have hammered this forum lately and sent a few pm's but i want all my info laid out before i even begin to grind my grains. i feel ill have the best chance of success this way.

[Deplorable]

Have you got a pot big enough to put 7.5 pounds of rye and 3 to 3.5 gallons of water? I use a 30-quart SS stock pot. Bring 3.5 gallons of water to 90F and slowly mix in your milled rye. Gradually raise the temperature to 105 to 110F and hold it for 30 to 45 minutes minimum. depending on the thickness of the bottom of your pot and the heat source, stir constantly to prevent a scorch. Don't let the grain rest on the bottom of the pot, or it will scorch.
If you do this as the temperature of your corn, barley, and oats falls, you can time it to add the rye into the rest of the mash at about 150, mix it all in and add your beta amylase.

thank you as well deplorable!

That's going to make a fine drop, the oats are going to make that rye coat your mouth for a really nice, long peppery rye finish. I assume you're planning a 25 gallon mash? You're going to love that if it lasts a year or longer before you drink it all. My 13% rye is really getting good. At 6 months it was drinkable, at 9 months I've decided not to touch the remaining gallon I have on oak to let it hit a year before I pour off another bottle.

[bez]

Have you got a pot big enough to put 7.5 pounds of rye and 3 to 3.5 gallons of water? I use a 30-quart SS stock pot. Bring 3.5 gallons of water to 90F and slowly mix in your milled rye. Gradually raise the temperature to 105 to 110F and hold it for 30 to 45 minutes minimum. depending on the thickness of the bottom of your pot and the heat source, stir constantly to prevent a scorch. Don't let the grain rest on the bottom of the pot, or it will scorch.
If you do this as the temperature of your corn, barley, and oats falls, you can time it to add the rye into the rest of the mash at about 150, mix it all in and add your beta amylase.

thank you as well deplorable!

That's going to make a fine drop, the oats are going to make that rye coat your mouth for a really nice, long peppery rye finish. I assume you're planning a 25 gallon mash? You're going to love that if it lasts a year or longer before you drink it all. My 13% rye is really getting good. At 6 months it was drinkable, at 9 months I've decided not to touch the remaining gallon I have on oak to let it hit a year before I pour off another bottle.

yes a 25 gallon mash. i will be running this in my mile high 2" dp tower in pot mode running a 55k element (unless my new mile high 16gal setup comes before. i ordered the 16gal pot still kit and will use my 8gal milk can as the thumper). i did add the oats for mouthfeel and smoothness.

[Deplorable]

You've got a plan.

[Twisted Brick]

will 15% rye even be noticeable in the mix? these were #'s i kinda just threw down. i dont know what grains bring this or that flavor to the mix. if i should adjust anything please let me know.

Hey bez, kudos for diving headfirst into your first all-grain! Your grain bill comes with a number of controls that need to be observed (ie the rye glucans as well as corn gel temps) but will reward you with a damn fine spirit. Like SCD advises, you could skip the rye glucan rest and your mash will still convert. You will already have your hands full trying to follow your plan but please know there is a bit of leeway built into mashing so don't sweat every last detail.

In my experience 15% of rye (especially raw) will produce enough glucan viscosity to change things - not drastically, but enough to alter your measurements. A while back, when filling a 5gal barrel with a 17% rye bourbon, the thickness of several converted mashes prevented me from successfully taking an OG reading until I started employing a glucan rest on subsequent mashes and... problem solved. And, this was with home-malted rye, not raw, which is notoriously higher in glucan production.

Deplorable's glucan rest can be simplified further by adding your milled rye to 112-115F water and after doughing in, let it rest, covered and insulated. After 45min you can add it to your converted corn mash along with your other small grains (~150F) and you're good. Note that the optimal beta rest is listed as 95F -113F. If you have a vessel to conduct a stovetop mash conveniently, go for it. If not, skip it, but your mash viscosity may make taking an OG a little tougher. As mentioned earlier, raw rye contributes a higher glucan viscosity than malted rye.

re: Enzymes, I've always followed the recommended dosage rate of .36ml per pound of grain (a little less if using alongside malt). It used to be listed in their spec sheet but I don't see it anymore. I wonder if it has been watered down. Moonshine Distillers advises 1ml per pound on their website, but that may just be them.

[bez]

will 15% rye even be noticeable in the mix? these were #'s i kinda just threw down. i dont know what grains bring this or that flavor to the mix. if i should adjust anything please let me know.

Hey bez, kudos for diving headfirst into your first all-grain! Your grain bill comes with a number of controls that need to be observed (ie the rye glucans as well as corn gel temps) but will reward you with a damn fine spirit. Like SCD advises, you could skip the rye glucan rest and your mash will still convert. You will already have your hands full trying to follow your plan but please know there is a bit of leeway built into mashing so don't sweat every last detail.

In my experience 15% of rye (especially raw) will produce enough glucan viscosity to change things - not drastically, but enough to alter your measurements. A while back, when filling a 5gal barrel with a 17% rye bourbon, the thickness of several converted mashes prevented me from successfully taking an OG reading until I started employing a glucan rest on subsequent mashes and... problem solved. And, this was with home-malted rye, not raw, which is notoriously higher in glucan production.

Deplorable's glucan rest can be simplified further by adding your milled rye to 112-115F water and after doughing in, let it rest, covered and insulated. After 45min you can add it to your converted corn mash along with your other small grains (~150F) and you're good. Note that the optimal beta rest is listed as 95F -113F. If you have a vessel to conduct a stovetop mash conveniently, go for it. If not, skip it, but your mash viscosity may make taking an OG a little tougher. As mentioned earlier, raw rye contributes a higher glucan viscosity than malted rye.

re: Enzymes, I've always followed the recommended dosage rate of .36ml per pound of grain (a little less if using alongside malt). It used to be listed in their spec sheet but I don't see it anymore. I wonder if it has been watered down. Moonshine Distillers advises 1ml per pound on their website, but that may just be them.

Besides a keg that I can cut the top off of and use a propane burner to do the glucan rest in I do not have a vessel large enough (which I can cut the keg up I don't use it anymore since I run electric now and the keg isn't converted over to electric and I also have a new 16gal mik can coming from mile high) could I bring water up to say 125-130 (going a little high to preheat the cooler) dump it into a cooler wait till the temp comes down to the 115 range (or use a strike water calculator) and add the raw rye and stir it in close the lid and let it sit? thank you as well for your info and help!

[Twisted Brick]

could I bring water up to say 125-130 (going a little high to preheat the cooler) dump it into a cooler wait till the temp comes down to the 115 range (or use a strike water calculator) and add the raw rye and stir it in close the lid and let it sit? thank you as well for your info and help!

Sure could. You could also just use whatever pot you have and heat/add multiple smaller batches to save you from cutting that keg. (I mash/ferment in a keggle and love it.) Really, resting anywhere from 100-115F will be effective, the higher end of temps will be a little faster.

I hope you're planning to ferment on-grain.

[bez]

could I bring water up to say 125-130 (going a little high to preheat the cooler) dump it into a cooler wait till the temp comes down to the 115 range (or use a strike water calculator) and add the raw rye and stir it in close the lid and let it sit? thank you as well for your info and help!

Sure could. You could also just use whatever pot you have and heat/add multiple smaller batches to save you from cutting that keg. (I mash/ferment in a keggle and love it.) Really, resting anywhere from 100-115F will be effective, the higher end of temps will be a little faster.

I hope you're planning to ferment on-grain.

Most definitely I am! I'll come up with something for a kettle. I'll have the rest of this week to figure out the last fine details because I plan on doing this Friday after work. I don't want to do it during the week due to work. I want to be home to monitor everything. My luck would be I'd miss the 150 degree mark to add my sebamyl gl and botch the whole thing up.

[bez]

Ok so I finally started my first AG today..... I boiled 30 gallons of water (in several batches) and dumped approximately 1/3 of the grain in at a time per 10 gallons of water..... by the time I got my barley 8.4#, 50# of milled (maybe a little too fine) corn in the temp was at 160. Will I still get enough starch from the corn without being at 190?

[bez]

Oh and BTW I upped my mash to a 35 gallon mash because it came out to basically 1 bag of corn

[bez]

Well it was somewhat of a success..... Ok so at 2:30am the temp was 144° and I added my enzymes and dropped the pH from 6.4 to 5.35 with citric acid. Just iodone tested it and no more starch was present (my conversion ratio sucked) my starting SG was only 1.035 ..... I'm thinking I didn't have the temp high enough for good conversion with the corn. So now the question is do I add sugar to bump it up or let it roll and suck this run up?

[bcook608]

You're sitting at about 5.25% abv if you let it finish at 0.995, which is a bit low for an AG mash (usually get about 8-10%). You can squeeze a little more out of it if you try to hit 0.990 but the extra time probably wouldn't be worth it.

I'd say run it as is and get yourself some good enzymes for your next batch (I prefer FermSolutions liquid enzymes. They work fast and I always get a good conversion). Add your hi temp alpha amylase with your grain and bring to temp. Hold the temp at 190 for the corn and adjuncts for about 90 minutes, let cool to around 160 and add another dose of alpha, then add your malts and gluco amylase at 145 or so. Let cool to pitch temp and ferment away! I get fantastic results with this method.

[still_stirrin]

… So now the question is do I add sugar to bump it up or let it roll and suck this run up?

Hint —> adding sugar to increase “alcohol potential” will reduce the “flavor potential” from your (hard earned) all grain mash. I wouldn’t add sugar, rather strip what you’ve got. It’ll give you BETTER flavor, although not as much liquid in your collection vessel. Think … “quality over quantity”.

Next time, add more grain. What you’re starting to establish with this run is the “brewhouse efficiency”, which when you use that to calculate your “potential” from the recipe, you’ll be able to adjust the grain bill to get what you want in your product, ie - quality AND quantity.

While the mash processes and temperature management is fundamental to extract efficiency, grain ratio and how you measure volume matters too. If you want a predictable result, making notes of your processes will help you hone inefficiency and converge on a predictable outcome.

As interpreted —> “practice makes perfect”. Very few can “homerun at their 1st at bat”.
ss

[bez]

… So now the question is do I add sugar to bump it up or let it roll and suck this run up?

Hint —> adding sugar to increase “alcohol potential” will reduce the “flavor potential” from your (hard earned) all grain mash. I wouldn’t add sugar, rather strip what you’ve got. It’ll give you BETTER flavor, although not as much liquid in your collection vessel. Think … “quality over quantity”.

Next time, add more grain. What you’re starting to establish with this run is the “brewhouse efficiency”, which when you use that to calculate your “potential” from the recipe, you’ll be able to adjust the grain bill to get what you want in your product, ie - quality AND quantity.

While the mash processes and temperature management is fundamental to extract efficiency, grain ratio and how you measure volume matters too. If you want a predictable result, making notes of your processes will help you hone inefficiency and converge on a predictable outcome.

As interpreted —> “practice makes perfect”. Very few can “homerun at their 1st at bat”.
ss

Would part of my problem be I wasn't able to get the mash temp to 190°? It was boiling when I put it into the fermenter but once I added the corn it dropped like a rock.

[Ben]

Could be. You can pull a decoction to correct your heat. That just means pull a portion of the hot mash, boil and add back into the mash.

You can also preheat your vessel, Boil whatever volume and add it to your tun, dump it before you add your first round of water and corn. Wrap the tun in blankets while you are waiting between water additions, cover the top with something, most heat loss is from the open top.

Corn can be a little tricky, try Sebstar HTL at 180-190, then your main enzyme at 145ish.

[bez]

Could be. You can pull a decoction to correct your heat. That just means pull a portion of the hot mash, boil and add back into the mash.

You can also preheat your vessel, Boil whatever volume and add it to your tun, dump it before you add your first round of water and corn. Wrap the tun in blankets while you are waiting between water additions, cover the top with something, most heat loss is from the open top.

Corn can be a little tricky, try Sebstar HTL at 180-190, then your main enzyme at 145ish.

My fermenter is wrapped 3 times in reflectix with a blanket on top of the lid. I do already have sebstar htl but didn't use it because I wasn't able to get the temp up high enough. I thought about taking mash out and re-heating it BUT was using my 8 gallon milkcan boiler with an internal 5,500 watt element and DID NOT want to scorch it. I am on my way to get more cutoff wheels for my grinder so I can cut the top off my keg and use a propane burner so i can bring the water to a boil then add my corn and let the temp come back up to 190 before I put it into the fermenter.

[Deplorable]

Having the ability to get your corn to a minimum of 180 to gel and keep it there is paramount. When you get your 16 gallon milk can, set it on a work bench above your insulated fermenting barrel. Bring the water to a rolling boil and open the drain valve to pour the boiling water into the corn while stirring with a mortar mixer. Immediately put the lid on it and a heavy blanket over the top. Now proceed to bring your next charge of water to a boil. You'd be surprised how much heat you lose moving transferring water with buckets.

When I'm mashing in, I wrap my 30 gallon barrel in reflectix, then two wool army blankets. It sits on a barrel dolly with casters, so it's off the cold concrete floor. After the 2nd addition of boiling water, it'll hold mash temps pretty good for a few hours. Plenty of time to soften the corn.
Additionally, Ferm-Solutions enzymes have a lower working temperature so you might try them after you use up all of your EnzyMash enzymes.

[bez]

Having the ability to get your corn to a minimum of 180 to gel and keep it there is paramount. When you get your 16 gallon milk can, set it on a work bench above your insulated fermenting barrel. Bring the water to a rolling boil and open the drain valve to pour the boiling water into the corn while stirring with a mortar mixer. Immediately put the lid on it and a heavy blanket over the top. Now proceed to bring your next charge of water to a boil. You'd be surprised how much heat you lose moving transferring water with buckets.

When I'm mashing in, I wrap my 30 gallon barrel in reflectix, then two wool army blankets. It sits on a barrel dolly with casters, so it's off the cold concrete floor. After the 2nd addition of boiling water, it'll hold mash temps pretty good for a few hours. Plenty of time to soften the corn.
Additionally, Ferm-Solutions enzymes have a lower working temperature so you might try them after you use up all of your EnzyMash enzymes.

Yea I would bring the water to a full boil (around 210°) and had to drain it 3-4 gallons at a time and dump it into the fermenter right next to where I boiled it at and would put the lid on directly (and know from smoking food if you're looking you not cooking ) and would leave it on until I HAD to take it off to add more water even when I was refilling the bucket with the 2nd half of the water from the boiler. I never thought I would loose so much temp from the transfer, it didn't even dawn on me that was happening.

[bez]

Well I cut my keg at work today, hopefully this will help me. My plan is to boil the water, add the corn, turn the burner back on low and stir till it hits 190° add sebstar htl then transfer into the insulated fermenter to sit. I will probably have to break this up into 3 batches I'm guessing. Then I will top off the remaining boiling water to make my 35 gallons.