email from Brewhaus

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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Prairiepiss wrote:
If you can only ferment 100 gallons (200 gallons for two adults in same house) of beer or wine. What makes you think you will be able to ferment any more then that for distilling? If they were to make it legal. This is unfortunate because some of us like to ferment at a lower ABV. And this would push the use of the crappy turbo shit.
I dont think so. 200 gallons of 8 % wash will make 16 proof gallons. Or 100 fifths of 80 proof assuming 50% cuts. Thats 2 fifths a week. If you drink more than that you probably shouldnt be running a still. Also, its well over 100 fifths when you consider recycling of feints.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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when you consider recycling of feints.
:shh:

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Re: email from Brewhaus

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blind drunk wrote: :shh:
HA!


There's some interesting comments and links on page 2,3 of that link I posted below on homebrew legistaltion. This one made me chuckle.... http://www.kare11.com/rss/article/96208 ... guidelines" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow "Current state law prohibits home brewers from moving their concoctions outside the home, making homebrew tasting events and competitions illegal. Homebrew enthusiasts around the state say the law is archaic and hurts their beloved hobby.

haha, homebrewers already saying the homebrew law is archaic. Sure would be nice for us to get to step 1 eh?
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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by cornsqueezer »

Another thing is aging, I think most of us age our product so maybe limit to 200 gallons in possession at any given time so you can store and age your product. We all know wine has a hell of a lot more alcohol than the average. Beer so why not stick with the magic 100 gallons per adult/200 gallons per house hold? This would allow us to be able to dust off a 7 year old bottle of our favorite drop!
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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Prairiepiss »

cornsqueezer wrote:Another thing is aging, I think most of us age our product so maybe limit to 200 gallons in possession at any given time so you can store and age your product. We all know wine has a hell of a lot more alcohol than the average. Beer so why not stick with the magic 100 gallons per adult/200 gallons per house hold? This would allow us to be able to dust off a 7 year old bottle of our favorite drop!
Wine is aged. And some beer is too. So I don't think that is a problem. As long as you can show you only produced x amount in that year. And if it was anything like the fuel permit. You would need to document it anyway.

The homebrew laws concerning taking it off your property. Just recently got changed here. With the help from actual brewerys in the state.

Now if we could also get the distillerys on board. That would help tremendous. The ones in my state have been working hard to get distilling laws changed. With great success. In a state that has had some of the strictest alcohol laws in the nation. But if we could get them to see the usefulness to them. And get them to help. Like local brewerys sponsor homebrew competitions. Maybe getting them a new recipe from the effort. Like Boulevard brewery. They recently did a thing where they made a wort batch. And gave 5 gallons out to homebrewers to take home and hop and ferment their own way. And will receive some of each batch for judging. To make a new beer they can offer. They also know that the homebrewers will buy their products. To taste try and to find new ideas from. So if we can get the craft distillerys to realize this. And help work towards our goal. That is much more pull then just Joe lunchbox's signature on a petition. And they already have contacts they are working with.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by King Of Hearts »

Jimbo wrote:
Prairiepiss wrote:
If you can only ferment 100 gallons (200 gallons for two adults in same house) of beer or wine. What makes you think you will be able to ferment any more then that for distilling? If they were to make it legal. This is unfortunate because some of us like to ferment at a lower ABV. And this would push the use of the crappy turbo shit.
I dont think so. 200 gallons of 8 % wash will make 16 proof gallons. Or 100 fifths of 80 proof assuming 50% cuts. Thats 2 fifths a week. If you drink more than that you probably shouldnt be running a still. Also, its well over 100 fifths when you consider recycling of feints.

In homebrewing you can make 200 gals a year, that's 4 gallons per week. Imagine if that was barleywine at 12% abv, or fruit wine or mead at 12%. Perfectly legal. They made the law, we didn't. Distilling does not make alcohol, it only separates and concentrates. The whole reason it's illegal is selling it and taxes. Read about the history of this country and the whiskey rebellion. Times have changed, and the law needs to also.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Everyone is coming up with some very valid and important issues. I think that less can be more. If we start addressing every little issue it gets to complicated. So complicated it is easier to keep things as they are which isn't in our favor. Address just enough to hopefully move forward
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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by King Of Hearts »

I think an important point to make for it is that, making it legal for home distillers will make it less in demand for illegal makers, thus reducing crime, bad make, and the cost of enforcement.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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King Of Hearts wrote:I think an important point to make for it is that, making it legal for home distillers will make it less in demand for illegal makers, thus reducing crime, bad make, and the cost of enforcement.
I don't know about that. I don't see the common person just deciding to run a still and I am almost certain that the only way the crime would be curbed is if distribution was allowed by law.

I guess it depends on whether we think we can get away with the low overhead/watch like home brewers enjoy or if they'll keep their fingers on us like they are doing with marijuana (documenting, taxing, regulating, etc).
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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by King Of Hearts »

Read the petition, there are lots of people who would try it if it were legal. Plus it would increase demand for spirits just as homebrewing did for Craft beer. Do you see any Craft brewers complaining, or winemakers complaining? Craft breweries let us have meetings at the brewery, how cool is that?
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Dnderhead wrote:".(list the ways that it is made safe). Remember that legislators want to do what is the safe thing to do"

I dont know about that but if that was the case then what about the 200,000btu burners in a studio apartment.or trying to plug a 5,000W element in to your kitchen outlet,or how about distilling in a apartment that's attached to 50 others.
Sorry to be late on this Dnder. You always have good points to make. But, the safety issues and liability under law for operation of a high btu propane burner, etc..already exists under law. (ie., grills, turkey friers, crab boil, making beer, etc). If you were to put one of these in your apt..and burn down the building with it...you'd be held responsible for it...regardless of what you were doing with it at the time. I'm not sure that "particular" point needs to be part of this since it's not specific to just this issue and is already well defined (dangers, negligence, etc) under existing law in other areas.

You can boil anything you want on your stove top. A pot full of hot oil...is dangerous...if it spills over onto the heat/flame. You can pour spirits in a pan on your stove and flame it up. That's alc right there...lit on fire! What makes it "reasonable" to do...is the size, proportion..to the space. I don't operate my floor burner indoors because it plainly says on it....DO NOT OPERATE INDOORS. And I'm aware that open flame in enclosed spaces can burn up oxygen. If you keg beer, you've got pressurized canisters of C02 around. MY GOD! Considering what signtest who work in the lavatory think about C02 these days (ie., a "pollutant) if that were to get loose...you'd destroy the earth!! All this, while related, is not specific to distillation as a safety issue.

I think I was more referring to materials safety for one. And "leaks"/construction, as it relates to safety. The size/heat issue is something that should be proportional to your space and follow the common sense and law that is already in place for such things. Nobody is gonna blame the burner manf if somebody puts one in their living room and burns their house down. But, to your point...they "might" blame the still if there was one...just given the public perception of them as being inherently dangerous. So, there is that as well (public perception). That goes to other safety issues as well (public perception).

I think public perception (is) changing and will change over time...when more is known/understood about it. I'm not talking about shows about Tim and Tickle making submarine pots in the woods, I'm talking about articles in the paper about some really small start up facility that's making hand bottled spirits, etc.

Did you ever see the pics of Kings Co Distillery? when they first opened (first legal distillery inside NYC limits since prohibition). It was in a 400-500 sqf hardwood floor apartment that happened to be over a commercial space. Started with a couple of mile-hi 5 gal potstills on hot plates. Did everything in that apt (mashing, fermenting, bottling, etc).

Here..take a look:
risen_kingscountydistillery_5-19_post.jpg
This was a fully lic/operational legal distillery.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Agreed Usge. Safety as it relates to burners and/or electrical safety are shared with homebrewing and legislation for homebrewing does not address those, we shouldnt either. The safety issues my lawyer friend brought up, that I pasted in yellow below again, are health related...

"Health issues along the lines of the Prohibition era "bathtub gin" should be addressed to allay fears by putting it out there that the risks are easily controlled by doing....(list the ways that it is made safe). Remember that legislators want to do what is the safe thing to do, so they will be predisposed to fear the worst."

Bottom line is our distilled products are MORE healthy than beer and wine, since we actually remove impurities in our process that are there in beer and wine, fusels, aldehydes, lower alcohols in the foreshots etc. I agree with my friend that we need to allay 'bathtub gin' type fears with some cold facts. King stated it well
King Of Hearts wrote:The safety issue must be addressed squarely and dead center.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Good points as always Usge.

Sorry to back track. But I wanted to comment on JBC's observation about the TTB's "responsibility" to protect revenue.

They are not at all truly equipped to protect any potential revenues that are generated "underground". Has prohibition not taught any lessons one wonders?
The thing they do is track revenues generated from legal distilleries. And in essence they are being spoon fed by those outfits! The underground economy will happen with or with their influence.

Tax on materials and other elements needed to participate have surly generated revenues. More profound interest in craft spirits have surly generated more revenues. I'll wager likker sales for legal distilleries are increasing year after year and largely due to folks looking to gain more insight to their favorite spirits,,,thus generating more revenues...
The problem is that they do not know how to account for these revenues that are indirectly but definitely linked to this hobby.
IMO the "powers that be" are in fact stifling potential revenues that will not at all impact the success of professional licensed distilleries. I believe they are spending money on a campaign that in essence is preventing an exponential amount of more revenues from becoming available from a product that is in fact legally sold.

They could spend the same amount of money on a few tools needed to help them cope and manage this potentially huge benefit.

Nice Job JBC

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Re: email from Brewhaus

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My point about health is, if someone made it for their selves to consume, they surely would want to make it safe, people who are in it to make money might not always care about how safe it is. Making it legal will make it safer product wise, equipment wise and operating wise.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Yes good point KIng. Some points that should be wordsmithed into the doc, in a section on health, are listed below. Any others? Barleycorn, you agree?

1 - Distillation 'produces' no compounds, only seperates those compounds already found in beer and wine.
2 - Distillation of beer and wine results in a product with fewer unhealthful substances than the base beer and wine, by virtue of removing them during the distillation process. Well known and documented distillation procedures include removal of early 'foreshots' and late 'tails', denoted as 'cuts', which contain predominance of any aldehydes and lower alcohols present in the base beer and wine.
3 - Home distillation for personal use typically results in greater quantity of the 'cuts' mentioned in bullet 2 above being removed than is generally practiced by commercial distilleries, as people tend to be more conservative and careful when producing something for their own consumption, thereby making home distilled products 'cleaner' and more healthful than even commercially distilled products, not less healthful
bla bla

Wording above needs to be cleaned up obviously, just trying to get the points across. Make sense?
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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A manufacture of stills should encourage people to buy a book of which are readily available in homebrew stores and amazon.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Wheat grass is healthy, guys, along with kale, spinach and other leafy green vegetables. Let's not turn this into a health food or we might not have a wobbly leg to stand on :wink:
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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blind drunk wrote:Wheat grass is healthy, guys, along with kale, spinach and other leafy green vegetables. Let's not turn this into a health food or we might not have a wobbly leg to stand on :wink:
No? HAHA
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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That's a good one :mrgreen:
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Maybe in 5 mo years, I already had my colonoscopy.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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I prefer the Kentucky Blue Grass over the Wheat Grass, myself.


Just sayin.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Black Eye wrote:I prefer the Kentucky Blue Grass over the Wheat Grass, myself.
You're just being pick-y :lol:
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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Speshel Ed »

Hey guys, just joined but have been reading the board for a while.. thought I'd share this.. I sent this to my congressman last night..

Thank you for your immediate response to my last inquiry regarding the NSA and Snowden et. al. Your invitation to my inquiries to any other issue has been on my mind all day.. I do have another issue I would like to recruit your assistance with. This is regarding the legalization of the home distillation of spirits. Our founding fathers enjoyed the freedom to pursue such endeavors, and I would like to be afforded the same freedom. I am opposed to the large scale production of spirits for illicit sales to persons and establishments.. However I do feel it is within the scope of responsible citizenry to engage in distillation of spirits on a personal scale. Perhaps with a limit to capacity to the common size of 15.5 or 23 gallon boilers. These sizes are for personal use and would be impractical for those who wish to engage in the sale of illicit liquors etc. (Please realize that the quantity of produced spirit is but a small fraction of total boiler size). President Carter legalized the home production of wine and beer in 1979 to 200 gallons per family per year. Such limits however quantized for spirits would be satisfactory for the home hobbyist distiller.
There is no means to obtain a license from state or federal agencies for such a small scale operation. It is beyond the scope of personal means to comply with the existing laws. The hobbyist isn't interested in the sale of spirits, nor equipped to engage in establishing production capacity to comply with existing laws. We're left in a niche of illegality that criminalizes something that should be regarded as harmless and even beneficial to society at large. New Zealand is a case example for the success for both personal and state interests in the matter. There are several excellent cases presented to argue the pros of my argument. I can provide copies of them if you would like. Bottom line, I simply view the prohibition of this niche of the home brewer / distiller to be wrong and I believe it needs to be changed. It's simple, it's clean, it should be of no concern or threat to the state or federal government on this scale. The laws in place have been essentially unchanged since the 1920's and should be seriously revisited.
One last thought... I hate to make this comparison but it warrants mention. If marijuana is recreationally legal, then how can this same climate consider home distillation of spirits a crime? We're such a small and well established community (middle aged/retired, property owners, middle to high income) that everyone's fearful of signing petitions for fear of reprisal thereof. The pot community probably has much less to lose and therefore more liberal in their attitudes to public disclosure of their beliefs. This is not the case for home distillers. We have families, homes, jobs, pensions, grandchildren. We don't want to risk such things. You will not see petitions for initiatives on this subject. We need a mature, vested hand to represent this issue in a sane and responsible way. A way that will get results to decriminalize something that was a freedom taken for granted by our founding fathers.

Thank you for your mindful consideration of this matter.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by drinkingdog »

HEy guys, either get back on topic or I'm going to delete everything but the first post :lol: :lol: :lol: Just kidding. Hell I couldn't do it if I wanted to. Carry on.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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Jimbo wrote:Yes good point KIng. Some points that should be wordsmithed into the doc, in a section on health, are listed below. Any others? Barleycorn, you agree?

1 - Distillation 'produces' no compounds, only seperates those compounds already found in beer and wine.
2 - Distillation of beer and wine results in a product with fewer unhealthful substances than the base beer and wine, by virtue of removing them during the distillation process. Well known and documented distillation procedures include removal of early 'foreshots' and late 'tails', denoted as 'cuts', which contain predominance of any aldehydes and lower alcohols present in the base beer and wine.
3 - Home distillation for personal use typically results in greater quantity of the 'cuts' mentioned in bullet 2 above being removed than is generally practiced by commercial distilleries, as people tend to be more conservative and careful when producing something for their own consumption, thereby making home distilled products 'cleaner' and more healthful than even commercially distilled products, not less healthful
bla bla

Wording above needs to be cleaned up obviously, just trying to get the points across. Make sense?
Yes back on topic..... This I think is the next step, cover safety in Barleycorns doc and start sending it to every swinging dick in congress.
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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by demodenny »

Good letter there Ed, Mind if I send a copy to my reps?
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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by drinkingdog »

Excellent letter Ed. I also would like to send it to my local representative.
My Grandpa used to say. Don't argue with an idiot, because he will just drag you down to his level then beat you with experience.
He also used to say. I didn't say it was your fault. I just said that I was blaming you.

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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Speshel Ed »

You bet. Also feel free to use, alter, and edit the content of my letter to suit your particular situation. Best of luck!
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Re: email from Brewhaus

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King Of Hearts wrote:My point about health is, if someone made it for their selves to consume, they surely would want to make it safe,.


Some people don't have the common sense to do it safe. They just use what is available plastic, lead soldier, car radiators ect.
Then when they do something stupid it comes back to haunt people like who are on this forum that do things right the safe way
My Grandpa used to say. Don't argue with an idiot, because he will just drag you down to his level then beat you with experience.
He also used to say. I didn't say it was your fault. I just said that I was blaming you.

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Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by thatguy1 »

Speshel Ed wrote:Hey guys, just joined but have been reading the board for a while.. thought I'd share this.. I sent this to my congressman last night..
A wonderfully worded letter. There are some grammar mistakes and little issues such as using "..." instead of a semi-colon, comma, or period, however I am not concerned with that. I am extremely impressed with the words you chose and the way in which you expressed them. I consider myself to have excellent grasp of English when writing formal letters like this. Your letter and your way of presenting the facts to a general audience who may not have much experience with distillation are exceptional and goes well beyond even what a professional in the field could produce. You need to make sure your letter is seen by your congressman, and I would urge you or other members of this forum to send that letter to as many influential people as possible.

Good job.
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