in search of the cleanest neutral

[Freedave]

I have been doing this for about a year now and my goal has been to make a clean neutral that tastes and drinks like vodka. By this I mean a neutral that can be made into a dry vodka martini. As of now I am still in search of this elusive spirit. people who have read some of my older posts know that i have asked about this before. hope I'm not beating a dead horse.

What I had in mind with this thread is a place where all like minded hobbyists could come together and trade experiences and maybe even the old timers would share. I’d like to start with more general ideas and eventually get down to the most specific details of procedures and practices related to running the still, mashing, fermenting, yeasts/nutrients, tasting, finishing and all else in between.

So to start out I’m copying my list (below) of ideas that must be taken into account when making the cleanest neutral. It can be used as a jumping off point to stimulate ideas and talk.
Key Ideas to Success for sugar wash
___________________________________________________________________________________

1) Invert the sugar before starting the ferment. Add lemon juice or cream of tartar in the amount of 1 tsp per gallon and simmer (slow boil) for 30 minutes, till light yellow.
2) Make sure you let all the sugar completely ferment. That means it should be < 1.000 FG.
3) Make sure you let the wash clear/settle completely. Rack it a few times as necessary. It should be quite clear to see through.
4) Let the reflux still equalize for 20 – 30 minutes after it is up to temp. Take foreshots off in two or three small, separate amounts.
5) Let your cuts air out for up to a week or more to let those off flavors vaporize. Dilute to 40% and sample moderately. Never blend after over sampling.
6) Do multiple stripping runs, combine them, dilute to 30%-40% and do spirit run. Spirit run drip rate should be “slow-medium”.
7) Extend the column height to at least three feet of packed length.
Try different yeast. Do not stress the yeast. No more than an 8 - 10% wash (thats about two lbs sugar for one gal water)
- Rehydrate yeast. Sprinkle yeast in warm water, let sit for 15 min, stir, let sit for 15 min more, stir & pitch.
- make a yeast starter.
- aerate frequently for the first 'few days'?
- make sure to give the yeast enough nutrients but not too much.
- try starting the ferment with half the total sugar/ntrnts and adding the rest after a few days.
__________________________________________________________________________________

as expressed in boulder brews post, this is a common problem/goal

thanks guys.

[new_moonshiner]

I would suggest Wineo's Simple Sugar Recipe . I have yet to see anything that makes a more neut product.. you got me thinking on that 2 to 1 ratio you stated though just how much sugar is that to a gallon . Keep in mind higher sg may yeild more product but whats the point if the end result carry's off flavs.

[rad14701]

I use both 1:1 and 2:1 Water:Sugar ratios when inverting sugar... Also, as a fairly accurate conversion, 1 cup (250ml) of sugar weighs 1/2 pound (.454kg)... Therefore, 8 pounds of sugar is approximately the same as 1 gallon (16 cups) of sugar...

A tall column will render neutral spirit from just about any wash with proper cuts, adequate reflux, and only enough heat to get the job done... The still, and it's operation, is more important than the boiler charge - within reason...

[new_moonshiner]

glad you put that within reason in there Rad . lol I have tried almost every sugar wash combo I thought was worth trying and ran them at the same reflux ratio and take off speed and did notice a difference but maybe im too picky .The still and operation does have alot to do with it for sure .. but IMO so does what your feeding it .. but thats just me .

[Freedave]

oops, i really didnt say that right. just edited the original list to say 'aprox 2 lbs sugar in one gal water'

and i forgot to ask. what word can i use to can i use to describe that off flavor that is still in my hearts. its not foreshots or tails, i know those flavours/smells. its some sugar or yeast odd flavor that i dont really know how to describe.

[new_moonshiner]

different types of yeast will give you different results also .have you tried different types ?

[bronzdragon]

I also think it's the "cuts" that make the difference. If you want really clean neutral, you're going to have to shoot for that very center cut and not run into the tails at all.

Some people have various carbon filter set-ups they use also.

Also try to keep your wash below 12%, and do not use turbo yeasts. Although I have seen a specific yeast for vodka, I have not tried it, it may be worth a try.

You're going to have to settle for a smaller amount in the run, to get the cleanest product. But then again, sugar wash is pretty cheap compared to other washes.

You may want to try a 2 or 3 distillation process, also.

cheers

~bd~

[LWTCS]

its some sugar or yeast odd flavor that i dont really know how to describe.

Kinda like sulfer? Bit of a feint dead or,,,,,,rot smell?

[HookLine]

Also, as a fairly accurate conversion, 1 cup (250ml) of sugar weighs 1/2 pound (.454kg)...

0.454 kg = 1 pound

1/2 pound = 0.227 kg

1 kg = 2.2 pounds


Also, weights less than 1 kg are usually written in g. So 0.454 kg = 454 g.

(Yeah, yeah, that is the metric pedant in me coming out. Sorry. )

[Freedave]

so far i've been using bakers yeast, but i have an order of ec1118 comming in the mail as we speak.

yes i'm aware of cuts and collect in 150ml amounts, let them air for up to a week, cut tto 40% and taste.

"Kinda like sulfer? Bit of a feint dead or,,,,,,rot smell?"
not sulfer, but maybe a little deadish with something else, but i cant say what.

i've tried stripping and spirit runs, it's still there.

most of my washes have been around 10-12%.

i should have said i've tried everything on the list except increasing my 26 inches of column packing, different yeast, and rehydrating yeast. so yes these are on the 'to do' list. will focus on the yeast befor column length. but what else..

[new_moonshiner]

Everyone has there way of doing things ..myself I would get the packing length up more 26 inches ? mmmm Im thinking at least somewhere around 42 plus inches or more to get ya in the 95 plus area .. and you mentioned slow to medium drip .. another flag my way of looking at it .this process takes time for the pure stuff , dont rush it keep it sloooooow on the take off let the still do its job ..
I take it you are using a reflux right ? im not to big on the aerate thing after its sealed up with air lock .. I would just seal it up(with air lock) and not mess with it till its done .. I have seen the ec118 carry over some flavs. as well. the bakers yeast at 1070-1080SG is hard to beat for a very clean product ..If you follow Wineo's recipe to the letter you will see what i mean . Like i said each have their own way of doing things and most of us think we are doing it the best. once you find what works best to give you the final product you are seeking you too will have joined this group.

[Aces High]

I've been playing around with using rice. Boiling it up for about an hour and converting it using enzymes. I've gotta say, this is the dryest tasting thing i've ever done. You end up with a lot of gluggy rice stuff at the bottom of your fermenter, but it seperates pretty quickly. You might wanna try a half rice, half sugar run and maybe even throw in some type of grain for a bit of flavour. Ive run just the rice through a detuned reflux still and there is practically no heads or tails at all.

[trthskr4]

EC-1118 is made for wine, which is flavored, so it may not be an good as you'd think. I'd get some Super Start Distiller's yeast to try. It's a fuel ethanol yeast basically but not a turbo. I keep 2 lbs. of it on hand if possible. Baker's yeast seems to leave a very slight subtle flavor in the finished product to me but it's fine for mixing.

[Dnderhead]

I believe EC 1118 is neutral (no or not much added favor) good alcohol tolerant, but is also a killer so dont add with other yeast.

[trthskr4]

I believe EC 1118 is neutral (no or not much added favor) good alcohol tolerant, but is also a killer so dont add with other yeast.

I'm just going by their website description of it. It may be neutral, don't know for sure. They make different types of yeast for different purposes and I believe that one's for red wines, champagnes. Tell ya what, here...maybe someone else can glean more info from this that I can. And I did find a chart on their strain page that I'd never seen before. It does say that the sensory effect is neutral, but I would think that only applies to its stated purpose which would be covered up by the sensory effect of the fruit used in the wines it's designed for not necessarily carry over to distilling the finished product.

Edit: Here's a statement from clicking on the sachets on the "strain page"
"Oenological properties and applications
The fermentation characteristics of the EC-1118 — extremely low production of foam, volatile acid and hydrogen sulfide (H2S) — make this strain an excellent choice. This strain ferments well over a very wide temperature range, from 10° to 30°C (50° to 86°F) and demonstrates high osmotic and alcohol tolerance. Good flocculation with compact lees and a relatively neutral flavor and aroma contribution are also properties of the EC-1118. "

[Freedave]

aces,
yes, i to have been thinking of trying rice. i worry about getting all alc from conversion. then also worry about adding some sugar, to be safe, and just reintroducing the off taste again. i tried potatoes in this way and had that prob. i know a few of you read this and say "you must eliminate only one variable at a time, otherwise you don't know what single thing was causing the prob". i hear you.

new,
i may be able to add a foot of packed column before hitting the ceiling. have been putting it off, but maybe its time.
in the mean time I'll run slower. yes, i have a slant plate bokakob.

trth,
yes, i almost bought the super start distillers yeast when i was ordering the ec1118. but the web site did not have them both. where do you get your distillers yeast from?

trth & dndr,
i have read what both of you say, and what every one on this board has said in the last year about the flavor/lack of flavor from these two yeasts. and then all those who swear by bakers. aaaahhhh, what is the truth? i know, i know. its what ever works for you and your still.

dndr, what is that they say about ec1118 being a higher alc tolerant yeast that is used to add the carbonation to champagne. I'd think that should mean it doesn't add bad flavor. but does it also mean its not good to get you from 0% to around 10%? i read both.

Lesson from today.
there are many different ways to do this. you must find your own way through trial/error. cannot be in a hurry. must be scientific.

at the same time many of us want to be told what things do apply to everyone.

[trthskr4]

I hear ya on the confusion Dave. Opinions are like A$$holes, everyone's got one. Trial and error on the other hand lets you have your own personal one to wipe.

I get my SS yeast from milehi by the pound. I think it's $12 not sure but I love it and you don't have to use much at all. I have never used EC-1118 but have used KV-1116 which seems really close and I don't care for it at all. For my WPOSW I've only used baker's yeast as per the instructions. For my next batch I will use the SS as a comparison.

[Freedave]

thanks trth, that price for the ss distlrs yeast is up to $19 now, but i'll still try some.

[Freedave]

since a couple guys just asked related questions i thought I'd bump this thread. i also included my updated list of ideas for a clean neutral. experienced people please critique.

Key Ideas to Success for sugar wash

1) Invert the sugar before starting the ferment. For 2 lbs (1 kg.) of sugar, 1 pint (500 ml.) of water add 1/4 tsp. (1 g.)acid (or juice of 1/2 lemon) and simmer (slow boil) for 30 minutes, till light yellow. Or read about & use invertase enzyme.
2) Make sure you let all the sugar completely ferment. Should be < 1.000 FG.
3) Make sure you let the wash clear/settle completely. Rack it a few times as necessary. It should be quite clear to see through.
4) For a reflux still let it equalize for 20 – 30 minutes after it is up to temp. Take foreshots off in two or three small, separate amounts.
5) Let your cuts air out for up to a week or more to let those off flavors vaporize. Dilute to 40% and sample moderately. Never blend after ‘over sampling’.
6) Do multiple stripping runs, combine them, dilute to 30%-40% and do spirit run. Spirit run drip rate should be “slow”.
7) For a reflux still extend the column height to at least three feet of packed length.
Try different yeast. Do not stress the yeast. No more than an 8 - 10% wash.
- Rehydrate yeast. Sprinkle yeast in warm water, let sit for 15 min, stir, let sit for 15 min more, stir & pitch.
- make a yeast starter.
- aerate frequently for the first 'few days'?
- make sure to give the yeast enough nutrients but not too much.
- try starting the ferment with half the total sugar/ntrnts and adding the rest after a few days.

[XXXX]

Distilling at 95% would mean you are getting 5% of water or whatever from the mash coming thru as well right? If not happy with the end product from this has anyone tried cutting down to 30-40% with demineralised/distilled water and running it again? Would this result in a cleaner drink as the 5% of non alcohols would possibly be higher in content of pure clean water and less of the water from the mash, just an idea which is probably all wrong but thought I'd throw it out there.

[eternalfrost]

distilling any mixture results in a "smear" of all the individual compounds through the entire run. but they will tend to group together at different temperatures and points in the run. for example the more volatile heads substances tend to come out at the very beginning but will still be present through the entire run. by running carefully you can coax unwanted substances into tighter bands which can then be discarded, but you will still always have some present through the whole batch.

refluxing can enormously compact these bands to the point where for all intents and purposes, all of the impurity is confined to one band.

azeotropic ethanol will always have 5% of other 'stuff' mostly water but also other undesirable things. once i tried diluting and re-running with a reflux and it did give a cleaner product. but i think its more worth your time to just get it right the first time, the improvement is small and the time large. i would say that it works because the first run has say 100mL of nasties, 90% of which get compressed to the heads and tossed. the next redistillation will then start with only 10mL of nasties of which 90% again get compressed and tossed out leaving only 1mL.

this is my explanation and admittedly is not based in any particularly solid theory... nd again ive only tried redistilling once and the effect might just all be in my head to begin with...
but again for this example, making the wash start with only 10mL of nasties in the first place by preparing a good healthy wash at a low ABV saves a whole run of the reflux which easily takes all day for a good sized batch of 95%

[Freedave]

xxx and eternal, i appreciate your thoughtful contribution.
i have tried rerunning on two separate batches with little success. i am beginning to think that 1) need to extend my column and get better at driving my rig. or 2) there is just no way that I'm going to get a martini worthy vodka from a sugar wash.

that leads me to another question.
i think most commercial vodka is made from wheat with the exception of a few specialty brands from potatoes or grapes. so, this says to me that it is either not possible for them to get a marketable spirit from sugar or it is too expensive. but i can't help thinking that even if it was too costly someone would be doing it now-days with the popularity of craft distilleries and all. so that leaves me with the 'not possible' conclusion.

thoughts?

[HookLine]

Well said, eternal.


XXXX. Go to Harry's excellent site, and read the article called 'Diluting the Still Charge'. Plenty of other great stuff there too.

[minime]

Well said, eternal.


XXXX. Go to Harry's excellent site, and read the article called 'Diluting the Still Charge'. Plenty of other great stuff there too.

Harry's excellent site for sure! Harry has recently undertaken a complete rebuild of The Alcohol Library with more links to publications, and tons more resources to be available at the click of the mouse. Don't know when it'll be ready but I'm eagerly anticipating. He's an amazingly dedicated and generous man.

Hats off to you Harry

[draco]

i think most commercial vodka is made from wheat with the exception of a few specialty brands from potatoes or grapes. so, this says to me that it is either not possible for them to get a marketable spirit from sugar or it is too expensive. but i can't help thinking that even if it was too costly someone would be doing it now-days with the popularity of craft distilleries and all. so that leaves me with the 'not possible' conclusion.

thoughts?

I have to agree. I would think at $25 to $50 a bottle the ingredients are the lowest cost part of the process. Let's be real even the most expensive organic grown sugar would not increase the cost of production for a bottle only a few cents. It has to be the ingredients that gives it that classic vodka taste.

[Centimeter]

In my opinion, the real key to good neutral is surely the stil and nothing else. I have a little over 1.5 meters of packing in a VM stil and I am able to turn the nastiest tasting low wines from corn whiskey into virtually top shelf vodka. I’d recommend taking another look at your stil design if you’re having troubles. Also, I equilibrate for ~60mins after boil is reached and spend almost half of my distilling time removing heads.

Honestly, I think I could ferment cow shit and turn it into good vodka with my stil, no exaggeration. Good luck.

[minime]

In my opinion, the real key to good neutral is surely the stil and nothing else. I have a little over 1.5 meters of packing in a VM stil and I am able to turn the nastiest tasting low wines from corn whiskey into virtually top shelf vodka. I’d recommend taking another look at your stil design if you’re having troubles. Also, I equilibrate for ~60mins after boil is reached and spend almost half of my distilling time removing heads.

Honestly, I think I could ferment cow shit and turn it into good vodka with my stil, no exaggeration. Good luck.

+1

[FREAK!]

What is the benefit of inverting the sugar???

I see that “Freedave” mentions simmering the sugar in a water sugar and Citric acid mixture for 30 min or more, but I don’t see this step mentioned in either WPOSW or Birdwatchers.

Does boiling the sugar for 30 min make a cleaner neutral than just dissolving the sugar in hot water???

thanks

[blind drunk]

http://homedistiller.org/sugar/wash-sugar/invert" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow Cheers, BD.

[HookLine]

Plain table sugar (sucrose) is made up of two different sugars, glucose and fructose, bonded together. The yeast has to split the two sugars apart with an enzyme before it can digest them. Inverting the sugar with heat and acid just does that job for the yeast, so it does not have to work so hard, and therefore produces less off taste. So the theory goes. Don't do it myself, but I am lazy.

(Apparently not as lazy as BD, who simply posted a link. )