How much to age

[lloyd778]

As a hobby enthusiast and self-proclaimed cheap bastard, I am in a quandary. For the last few years I have made enough for me and a few select others but am having a hell of a time getting enough to age in oak. I am making UJSSM almost exclusively and keep adding to production (bigger everything... fermentors and stills) just to keep up with my demand and from the few friends that I have. I resort to accepting under-aged stuff almost constantly. I have run the numbers several times and I think I see the problem... me AND my few friends are cheap bastards and shun the store-bought stuff. My personal requirement is for at least 1/2 liter per day at 40 to 45%. So if I am to age this properly I need lots of small barrels or a few small barrels and a full size 200 liter (53 US gallon) one. I have tried oak chips, blocks, sticks, different char levels, all of that. The barrel is where it is at for me. Please don't flame me. I ask for your advice. I have a 10-gallon Gibbs barrel that will simply not be able to keep up. I just ordered a new 53 gallon charred white oak bourbon barrel from the largest barrel maker in the US for less money than the 10 gallon Gibbs. You see where I am going with this. My goal is to fill the 53 gallon barrel as soon as possible. I can draw from the 10 gallon barrel and then top up the 10 gallon barrel from the 53. I can top up the 53 gallon barrel from hooch in SS kegs that have a hand full of charred oak and charcoal added to them to kinda get them started in the right direction. Once this is set up, and some time passes, I should be able to easily keep up with demand (which is mostly from me). So IF I need 1/2 liter per day times 365 days per year - that’s almost 200 liters a year. That’s one aged full sized barrel per year! I know, the barrel contains about 62% ABV and I'll cut it to about 40-45% so I'll gain more than the angels share, about 20-25% or so, maybe. How to deal? Has anyone faced this situation?
A loose quote from a member on this site recommends: "make much more than you need so you can age it". I really see the wisdom of that.
I do not want to go big-time, just wanting to get ahead of the curve. Any suggestions?

[goose eye]

wants will get you in troubles if you aint careful.
what you meanin by aged.
buy another barel an be one year out. course when the law shows up
you got yourself one of them criminal enterprizes ifin they can tie it to you.

so im tole

[absinthe]

the bigger the barrel the less surface area per litre is in contact with the booze so the longer it takes to age..

[LWTCS]

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 7&start=15

Punkin talks about the solara method he uses in this thread.

When I get my production levels further along, i'm gonna glean some of the techniques he uses.

[lloyd778]

Thanks LWTCS, great link to Punkin's method. Exactly what I was trying to accomplish. Never knew it had a name, "solara method".

Absinthe, I think we all know that. That's the reason for topping off the small barrel from the bigger one.

Goose eye, all good points, we all must be careful always. By aged I mean 'in the barrel long enough for it to taste good'. If it takes one year, two years, or more... ok. As it is now, not much is over 3 or 4 months old, and I jealously guard the year old and older stuff that was aged in glass with charred oak chunks. So young booze tastes ok but not great. It just needs time.
The problems with buying another barrel are:
I am a cheap bastard, as you know.
And I still need to fill the new 53 gallon barrel. The 10 gallon is full. Only have enough now to 1/2 fill the 53 so a few more big batches are needed.
And if I bought another 53 gallon barrel now, I run the risk it drying out and not sealing. The barrel maker, Cooperages 1912, sent this information in am email:
"I have to tell you that your best decision would be to purchase the barrels as you need them. If you leave a bourbon barrel sitting around for months, it is going to dry out – even in good conditions. Once this happens, you run the risk that it will not swell up in the future and we will be in a repair situation that is going to cost more money. I really believe you should purchase the 1 barrel you need now, and then purchase the others later. However, if you want to proceed, then I would say to keep the other barrels in a dark, humid, and cool environment until you are ready to use them. Before using them, you should follow our barrel care instructions - attached. Regarding char level, I would suggest a #1 char which will be plenty for your needs. It comes with a poplar wood bung that you can pop out with a hammer and possibly reuse – but I would not count on it."

Attached is their barrel care instructions.


Edit: odd, I attached a PDF but it did not work. Trying again... Oh, I see now. A PDF is not allowed. What's the workaround to that?

[goose eye]

ole boys got some barels that been round for awhile . right before ole boys use em beat the rings down an fill with water for a day or so or float em in a pond. if worm been in em they will push a toothpick in an break it off.

so im tole

[lloyd778]

Goose eye I always like reading your posts. You have a common sense and practical solution to everything. Why didn't I think about the toothpick?!!
The new Gibbs barrel would not seal up because it had a tiny hole in the head. I dripped some wax on the hole and it is holding tight now. The toothpick idea is much better.

[zymos]

Worth mentioning that if you are trying to swell up dried barrels, you don't want to tighten the hoops too much at once- when the wood swells, staves will crack if the hoops have been driven too far up.

[lloyd778]

Mr. Zymos, I have at least as much respect for barrel makers as I do for fine cabinetmakers. I am a metal worker by trade and know just enough about woodworking to be dangerous. But I can really appreciate fine woodworking. Cooperage is a skill I will leave alone. My closest friend is a master cabinetmaker and sometimes we hang out in his workshop. A few months ago he told me that he had tried to make a tight barrel three times. The first two would not seal up so he just uses them now as chairs. The third exploded overnight (hoops too tight?). He said his father was a cooper but died before he could learn the trade. I figure if he could not do it I certainly did not need to try.
If I ever luck upon a used barrel or need to tighten up the hoops, I will remember your advice and my friend’s experience.
But the best part is I get choice scraps of white oak free. After toasting some real dark I gave him some. A wood salesman visited his shop and commented on the toasted oak. He thought it was expensive ebony wood. Haha.

[FeralPig]

I have long since decided that my production rate will never keep pace with my drinking habits. I just can not ferment and distill that much. Maybe when I retire.

[lloyd778]

Feral, I can see that you and me can never be good friends. Neither one of us has enough left over to share with the other

[Eugene]

I would stop feeding my tight ass friends for a while, get in front, then bring them back on board if you feel the need.

[Scribbler]

on the idea of stopping the supply to the friends... hmm... tough to do... but here is an idea:

you could simply say that you just can't keep up, and get your friends to start making the mashes and buying the barrels.

tell them that you will distill 1 batch per month per person or something if they provide the washes and the receptacles... then you throw in some instructions "it is up to the owners discretion what duration to age this product for" and then your done! you are still the magical supplier, but your friends have bought a stake in it...


mk

[lloyd778]

Hi Eugene and Martenskoop, the trouble is my cheap ass is first in line already. I get a coffee cup full and they get a thimble about half full
I traveled a lot in the last 6 months and that kinda broke my distilling routine. Now I'm back to it and scaled up a bit so hopefully I can set some back for ageing.

[Scribbler]

hiya lloyd...

nothing wrong with taking the majority of the hootch... especiallu considerying that it is YOURS!!!...

my suggestion was more along the lines of simplifying the process... distribution of the labour and all that... but I guess if you enjoy doing it then...

I am still building my still and loving every minute of it, but its been crazy... I am making a super shotgun mega condenser and it has been challenging... its almost done, and I am feeling sad... i love the mechanical end of things, and I thinjk I am reaqlly going to enjoy the distilling, but right now, the fermentation part of the process is giving me the heebe jeebes. it just sounds so gadaweful complex it is hard to see how that part could be any fun!!! (which is why for my first few attempts, I am using my brother-n-law's home winemaking expertise... he provides the wine, and I will distill it!!!take care


mk

[HookLine]

I would stop feeding my tight ass friends for a while, get in front, then bring them back on board if you feel the need.

Or just point them at HD, and tell them to learn how to do it for themselves.

[lloyd778]

Martenskoop, I am just like you in trying to cobble together a shotgun condenser because the simple little liebig that I have now is not knocking down the heat enough on my little continuous still http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 6&start=30. But I have the fermenting down pretty good now... success every time using a 55 gallon UJSSM http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=725 wash. Almost too easy. And cheap!!
As for the liebig, I wonder if a cheap and lazy bastard like me should bother with the trouble and expense of the upgrade. If the distillate comes out hot, is there really any concern? I've grappled with that for some time now. I may lose a few ounces to evaporation but am i possibly hurting the product at all? I cannot see how.

[lloyd778]

Hi Mr. Hookline, I've always paid particular attention to your posts. As for my friends... well what can I say?... they aint like us. I think distilling is a manly art akin to cooking a spicey tender barbeque or fine tuning a 1969 350 4 barrel engine with real points that never saw a touch of modern electronics or building something with you own 2 hands. But they are a bit different. They are not cheap like me. And after a few hours of helping me distill they get really bored. They get sleepy while my mind is racing thinking of ways to improve or modify the system. Always like this. Not knocking them at all because otherwise they are good buds. They just don't get it. They would rather pay someone to give them something that is just OK than to take the effort to learn and do. I've never taken the first penny for the hooch that I've made or shared with them and never will. Around here, money is never exchanged between real friends. I was hoping that at least one of my few good friends would take a special interest so I could share this great hobby with him. But so far no luck.

[Scribbler]

hiya lloyd... if your cheap, I would say a shotgun is not the way to go... I have 36 1/4 inch tubes that are 11 inches long each... at home depot I was able to get this tubing by getting two rolls of twenty feet... you may ask where the other 5 feet of pipe went to... well, lets just say that practise makes perfect... as to why i went with 36 pieces: the electric deep frier that I got for 5 bucks came with e french fry basket: all around the rim was 10 sets of a 6x6 grouping of 1/4 holes... perfect for spacers! I cut it apart and flattened them out, so now my shotgun tubes have ten spaces evenly spaced allong the eleven inches... i cut each one a little short on alternating edges, so the coolant water needs to travel in an S or Z pattern on its way through... lots of fun putting this together, but took a LOT of heat (two torches running) because all that metal drew the heat away so fast!!! I suspect that my condenser is overkill (I compared surface areas and volumes againsy standard liebigs...) but I figure that this condenser will serve me for a long long time and will be able to handle a much bigger still if i ever go larger... good luck! thanks for the links too...

mk

[lloyd778]

Dang martenskoop, i thought a shotgun condenser was "sawed off". Yours is a Gatling gun at 36 tubes x 11"! Good god man what are you trying to cool? You are certainly a man after my own heart. Guarantee you. I tend to overbuild but jiminy... I'm thinking you are my very best friend now. Can I borrow that condenser now? ?? Huh, huh, can I?

[HookLine]

Yeah, you're right, lloyd, this hobby ain't for everybody. Still, if your friends want the goodies (any more than a taste or two), they gotta do at least some of the work. Teach em how to do basic ferments at least.

or fine tuning a 1969 350 4 barrel engine with real points that never saw a touch of modern electronics

I understand that. Used to do the timing on my 30 year old 253 V8 using nothing more than hand tools, feeler gauges, a circuit test light, and the sound the engine made, didn't even use a strobe light. Got pretty good at it too.

Got a diesel now, so no more points or carby kits! Can't say I miss doing them.

But they are a bit different. They are not cheap like me.

You mean they are lazy? Just tell em you ain't cheap, you are an artisan, a man who takes pride in his handiwork, and getting the most from the least resources.

[rad14701]

I think I'd have a tough time sharing my spirits with anyone who didn't have an interest or at least a respect for the craft, craftsman, and product... Having someone fall asleep tells me that your friends aren't interested in anything about the process of the craft other than the FREE part...

As for condensers, you can get more than enough cooling from much cheaper and easier to construct designs... Shotgun/Thor's Hammer condensers are best left to those who truly love putting solder to copper for its relaxingly therapeutic aspect... I'd like to build one some day simply for the challenge...

[lloyd778]

Hi HookLine and Rad, I can't really rag on my friends, they just have other interests. The only common thread with any of them is that we are all small businessmen. One is a flooring contractor, another is a carpenter, another builds racecars and another builds houses. We are all in our 50s or early 60s. You get the idea... tending a still for hours on end is novel up to a point for them. Me? I enjoy the hell out of it. And putting a UJSSM together is just too quick and easy. It truly is not about money or being lazy or not appreciating the craft. It is just the commitment of time and effort. The best part of being in this gang is that if anyone needs the help of another it is freely given and no score is kept. If someone needs metalwork done they come to me. Usually it’s a 10-minute saw, bend, grind and weld job or something. All of them have helped me on countless occasions. But its a lot more than that, we are friends. I just have more time than most people because I don't watch TV. It puts me to sleep. I never get to see the end of a film. I would rather build something.
And Rad, I saw your post on another thread about using a solder pot to solder the shotgun liebig together. I slapped my head and said, What a great idea!

[LWTCS]

The best part of being in this gang is that if anyone needs the help of another it is freely given and no score is kept. If someone needs metalwork done they come to me.

Cheers to you. Good neighbors (and friends) are part of a good quality of life for lots of folks.

But it would be a nice jesture if any of em ever offer to pony up with a 25lb sack of sugar ( ).

Tell em your on line crew said to tighten up on the likker sharing etiquette.

[lloyd778]

LWTCS wrote:
But it would be a nice jesture if any of em ever offer to pony up with a 25lb sack of sugar ( ).

Tell em your on line crew said to tighten up on the likker sharing etiquette.

Thats what I'm talkin' bout.
Tighten em up or cut em off.

But I'm getting ahead of the curve now. Just need to keep pushing enough through the still.

My routine is a 55 gallon UJSSM one day each week. Currently my UJ is 80 pounds of sugar, 1/3 of a 50 pound bag of corn chops and about 40% backset). That gets run through the continuous stripping still. At the same time, I spirit run last weeks low wines from the continuous still and recharge the fermenter for next week. It takes most of a day but I get to add at least 5 gallons to the big barrel each week at about 125 proof. And I only need about 3/4 of a gallon each week at 90 proof to get by on. I pull off about 9 gallons or so of 100-110 proof low wines from the continuous still from each 55 gallon ferment (Note: my fermenter is 55 gallon and after the grains and sugar I really have no idea how much liquid is in there but i figure about 42 to 46 gallons maybe). My keg boiler for the spirit run will hold the 9 gallons of low wines and 3 more gallons of water. Not enough room in it to add the 2.5 +/- gallons of heads and tails from the last week so they all go into another keg and get cooked off when the keg gets full. Its mostly heads because a lot of the tail are removed by the continous still. On the spirit (pot) still I can collect a little deeper into the tails than I normally do because so much of that nastiness is already gone because of the continuous still - they get dumped into the backset.

*****All of the numbers and calculations are dependant on many factors including the position of the moon to the horizon, if my dog found a new girlfriend and if the mailman is early or late. All very scientific I assure you.*******

The 10 gallon barrel is full. The 53 gallon barrel is about half full now. When its full I can cut way back on production and return to being a lazy bastard.
I'll be getting married in about 3 months and at that time I plan to devote much time to the Panty Dropper thread.

[goose eye]

panty dropper ?
i wouldnt be buyin no car without test drivein it. all of em aint got posi trac rear ends. ha ha

[FeralPig]

panty dropper ?
i wouldnt be buyin no car without test drivein it. all of em aint got posi trac rear ends. ha ha

LMAO. Twisted sir, truly twisted.

[lloyd778]

goose eye, clever. made me laugh and laugh. I can get the booze into the barrels easy enough but how do you get it out without plastic? maybe a few feet of copper tubing? rolling it over aint gonna work for me as its mounted down pretty good cause of space and a bit afraid it might be unsafe otherwise. least for me. even rolling it over is pretty sloppy. you got some ole boy tricks for filling a gallon jug from a barrel? aint got no spiggot on it. just the one bung hole.

[goose eye]

you tellin me all them folks sitin round drinkin an yall aint pondered it out.
cant say the ole boys no nun right off cause they roll it to the side. when they fillin jugs they fill with ss pan with a ss funel with a single wove sheet stretched across bottom of funel for strain drunkards an such. sure they got that bendin copper in plumin section they got for water heaters an such.
make your buddys sifon them jugs full no it dont much mater to them if they swallow a little bit. ha ha. ole boys got old syrup plugs made of all wood but dont think they would hold back a barel of likker for long without swellin shut.

so im tole

[lloyd778]

Goose Eye, been thinking on it some. A simple and cheap solution would be to pressuse up the barrel a little. I could use oxygen, nitrogen or CO2, as they are available to me. A bicycle tire pump would also work but I'd shy away from using my air compressor because I wouldn't want to be adding any petroleum to the barrel. I might think on it some more and build one tomorrow.