Extracting grain alcohol from tincture

[ddjtrkr]

First, please bear with me and my ignorance. All I know about distilling anything is what little I can remember from high school chemistry some 45+ years ago.

How practical it is to recover the gain alcohol in a tincture solution by distilling a tincture solution made by soaking a veggie (making homemade medicine from herbs) in Ever Clear until it has extracted the essential oils? Currently we just evaporate off the alcohol into the open atmosphere. This is costly, wasteful, slow and potential dangerous because of the strong alcohol fumes. Is it practical?

If it is practical, what type of still is the simplest (both to build and operate), most efficient, cost effective (both to build and to operate) and relatively the quickest to run? I have access to a couple of different vacuum sources and was considering using a vacuum still with the vacuum source between the evaporator and the condenser because of (a) the lower temperatures involved and the use of a vacuum rather than pressure so ther is virtually no danger of an explosion.

Also, where i am starting with grain alcohol, how much do I have to worry about heads, middle, tails and so on?

Thank you for your advise and patience.

Don Jones

[HookLine]

Did you have a specific reason for wanting to do it this way?

Why not just buy some more Ever Clear? I gather it ain't real expensive.

[ddjtrkr]

Hookline,

Thank you for your quick response.

I apologize for not being clearer in my original question.

We are using Ever Clear to extract essential oils form herbs for medicinal purposes and for seasoning in cooking. Currently, we are evaporating the Ever Clear off into the atmosphere, BUT that is wasteful, slow and potentially hazardous in case the vapors ignite.

What I am trying to do is to recover the Ever Clear while concentrating the oils by distilling the Ever Clear out of the tincture so that we can reuse the Ever Clear and greatly lessening the chance of igniting the alcohol vapors.. I thought this would work well ALL of the constituents of the oil vaporize at a higher temperature than ethyl alcohol so hopefully I can extract the alcohol and leave the oils behind. One reason I was leaning towards vacuum distilling was the lower temperatures involved and the ability to heat the still with hot water without the risk of ignition of any escaping vapor.

Thank you again for your reply.

[Husker]

A simple pot still would perform this task, and allow you to recover the everclear.

As for heads/tails/etc. I would not worry about them. If all you plan on doing, is to do this again (more herbs macerated in the booze), then it is all fine.

Now, keep in mind that adding heat to the process might well change the end resulting essential oil, and the oil itself might come across in this distillation process. I have not made oils myself, so I have NO experience here. I do know they sell essential oil extraction stills. The iberian coopersmiths, i.e. the alembic guys in Portugal http://www.copper-alembic.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow have several that are designed specifically for this.

Now, you had mentioned vacuum distillation. I would think this might be a good way to go. If you can pull a pretty strong vacuum, you can distill with little or no heat, and thus not 'chance' having the oils be modified by the heat.

Whatever you do, please keep posting to this thread, so we build up our knowledge set here, since I think there are few here doing this, but I bet many are interested (I know I am). If the thread grows, I think would could put it in the Research/Theory section, as this novice ends up getting a lot of noise, and good stuff gets buried pretty quickly.

H.

[ddjtrkr]

It seems like no one out there is willing to share any knowledge on using distilling to remove the alcohol from tinctures to either concentrate the tincture or hopefully completely remove the alcohol and leave the essential oils behind.

Okay, I need some basic information on building and using a vacuum still. First, where can I find information on how to build a simple vacuum still?

Second, am I correct that the only difference in a vacuum still is that you apply a vacuum to the evaporator, and exhaust the resulting vapor to the condenser that is at ambient pressure so that the vapor condenses out at a higher temperature? I can't think of any other way to collect the condensate.

Outside of trial and error, is there anyway to know how much vacuum to use?

Is a reflux still practical, or even needed in a vacuum still?

Thank you all for any assistance you can give me.

Don Jones

[olddog]

Its probably harder to give advice on removing alcohol. Distilling as we do it is for creating alcohol, not removing it.

[HookLine]

It seems like no one out there is willing to share any knowledge on using distilling to remove the alcohol from tinctures

It is not because we don't want to help you, but that sort of stuff is not what we do here, so there might not be anybody here who can help you directly.

I will be surprised if you cannot find a forum or website somewhere that specifically deals with tincture and essential oil extraction. Chemistry forums could be a good place to start.

All the best with your search.

[Husker]

Its probably harder to give advice on removing alcohol. Distilling as we do it is for creating alcohol, not removing it.

Actually, distillation creates no alcohol at all. It removes it if from a mixture and concentrates it. Fermentation does ALL of the creation.

The difference in this instance, is he is doing this to keep what we would normally discard as backset (the 'left overs'). Also, due to this, it is likely that heat has to be kept WAY down, thus as he has mentioned, using vacuum is probably what will be needed.

Hookline is right, ddjtrkr, it is not that no one is willing to help you, it is just that no one here likely has any experience in doing what you are wanting to do. I think a few have a vague idea of how the process works, and have tried to describe it, but it is likely since you are researching doing this yourself, that you are the expert here. You are not likely to have too many people post methods, when they have no practical experience in said methods.

Good luck in your search. If you find your answers and wanted to update us on what you are doing, I am sure there are other members who would be interested. You are more than welcome to share what you find out.

H.

[Dnderhead]

I did some searching and most that I found was steam distilled. that is using a steam generator (a boiler) and a basket to hold the vegetable mater
( much like a gin basket).. then water is condensed and oil separated. no alcohol involved.

[Husker]

I did some searching and most that I found was steam distilled. that is using a steam generator (a boiler) and a basket to hold the vegetable mater
( much like a gin basket).. then water is condensed and oil separated. no alcohol involved.

Yes, that is the method I have heard about also, and the one I posted which stills by the iberian coopers (copper-alemic.com people) use. But there is also a method (I again believe, due to 100% lack of actual experience) where a person macerates in high proof, then removes the alcohol. I would believe this 2nd method is the one used to make the little commercial extract bottles (like almond, vanilla, etc), since I would think the steam distillation method would be way too cumbersome for doing this on a huge scale of a commercial company, like McCormick.

H.

[brewmaker1]

I would highly recommend that you don't try to distill grain alcohol off the tincture using normal techniques. The main reason is you're already working with 95% spirit, and unless you're willing to cut it to 40% first, you're taking great risks.

I don't have any experience with a vacuum still, but if it doesn't involve heat, it could be the way to go. Another option (if you're not going to drink the spirit) would be something like that easystill, but using a hot pad under the bucket so there is less chance of creating an explosive environment.

[heynonny]

This reminds me of what my pop told me once. He said as a kid he would get a couple jars of shoe polish and filter it through a loaf of 'white' bread, When he got to the bread that was "wet" but clear, he ate it. I dont think they use alchohol in shoe polish now, but I would NOT consider trying to distill the alc. out of it if they did. If they did, it would prob be denatured(?). Would tintures contain denatured?? Can one 'still out just the ethanol?? I thought that was the point of denaturing. Sounds like risky business to me. -hey-

[wrencher]

I know this reply comes almost 2 years after your original post, but this post came up on a search. I have been doing research on tincture reduction and am in the process of making a device to do that. I work in a food processing facility which gives me access to stainless steel materials and welding facilities to make such a device. Through ebay and some industrial supply houses I have purchased items to build a controller for monitoring temperature and control a small heater so the temperature doesn't go above 140 degrees. When a gallon is reduced to a quart the system shuts off and an indicator light comes on. I will not leave it unattended though. I will use it outdoors as the alcohol evaporates into the atmosphere, but I intend to add a condensing unit later. Basically it will be a tube and fin type with cooling fans and possibly a water mister over the fins. I have also made a tincture press.

I understand that some alcohol must be left for preservation purposes. Removing all the alcohol will lead to natural breakdown of the essential oils and alkyds. I plan on removing the remaining alcohol before use or during final processing, depending what the herb is for. One thing to consider is that some minute quantities of the herbal extracts will evaporate with the alcohol, rendering the condensed alcohol only good for using with that particular herb. Your alcohol will have to be sorted and labeled. And you are right, heat must be kept to a minimum so as not to degrade the effectiveness of the extractives. Most all essential oils and alkyds can well tolerate 140 degrees, but I wouldn't go any higher.

On the use of a vacuum pump, you will have to condense the alcohol vapors BEFORE they reach the vacuum pump. Alcohol will react unfavorably with the oil in the pump (which makes the pump work) and that means a complicated device. It is similar to freeze drying where a vacuum is used to remove the water vapor from food, only you won't be freezing your tincture of course. In freeze drying water vapor must be condensed before it reaches the vacuum pump so the oil is not turned into a sludge, rendering the pump useless. Generally a reservoir/condenser is installed before the vacuum pump as it is difficult to drain during the vacuum process. Positive pressure is required to do this. For simplicity a GENTLE heat is the way to go, at least from the research I have managed to accumulate. (And I agree with you, there is not much information out there.)

My unit would be costly if not for the benefit of my resources. Stainless steel is expensive and the ability to perform sanitary welding for free is a blessing. But the controller, consisting of the power supply, PLC, relay, heater, etc., is costing upwards of $300 or more. I did save by using a converted meat thermometer that only cost $15 at Walmart. But the conversion cost about $50 in other parts. But a thermal probe would have added a couple hundred bucks to the project. I have decided on the controller for the sake of convenience, so I don't have to monitor it every minute of operation.

So my endeavors might not be practicle for you, depending on the resources at your disposal. But I would advise you to go with a heat source, a LOW heat source. A condenser of some sort will recover the alcohol most efficiently. I have seen some on ebay that might work - I am still researching that area.

[Ronin frog]

You need a soxhelt extractor.
http://www.heartmagic.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow has a modified 5liter biomass flask and condenser that operates like a soxhelt apparatus