city/big still/heat source

[Cackalack]

I have started my own legal distillery and would like to build a large still, thinkin' 100 gallons

I'm about to rent out a loft commercial space

the thing I'm not sure about in the design and construction of the still is the heat source

what would be the best way to heat 100 gallons most efficiently in the city, in a loft commercial space?

[LWTCS]

In my jurisdiction, if using gas then one has to also incur the expense of an ansel system and an exhaust system with repacement air. Can you say startup costs?

If using electric, no exhaust required. On the other hand, daily operating will likely be higher with the electric.

Your building department will/should have some guidelines for you.

[Dnderhead]

In a "loft"? don't thank that is ever going to fly, building the still? 100gal don't thank is going to cut it.
making your own still? hear in the states they frown on that, Iv herd that you can make a pot still
(they still don't like it) but not a reflux.
we do have some info on the subject. ( do a search "going legal")or log on to A.D.I.* you can "snoop" but you do have to join to post.(100$?)
But then that is what they do. and can help with all.



* american distillers institute

[dixiedrifter]

I highly suggest you sit down and read the TTB website, particularly the FAQ section.

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/faq.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You cannot produce spirits for beverage purposes without paying taxes and without prior approval of paperwork to operate a distilled spirits plant. [See 26 U.S.C. 5601 & 5602 for some of the criminal penalties.] There are numerous requirements that must be met that make it impractical to produce spirits for personal or beverage use. Some of these requirements are paying special tax, filing an extensive application, filing a bond, providing adequate equipment to measure spirits, providing suitable tanks and pipelines, providing a separate building (other than a dwelling) and maintaining detailed records, and filing reports. All of these requirements are listed in 27 CFR Part 19.

Spirits may be produced for non-beverage purposes for fuel use only without payment of tax, but you also must file an application, receive TTB's approval, and follow requirements, such as construction, use, records and reports.

Lets not forget reading Code Federal Regulations:

http://www.ttb.gov/spirits/regs/27cfrpart019.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

So basically you have to start by getting a business license and then leasing someplace. That requires compliance with the local level, make sure your properly zoned, get your fire marshal to sign on, have insurance, business license, EIN, and all that good crap. Then you get your still installed and apply for the TTB permit. Once you get that you have to get approval from the state liquor control authorities. Then there are bonding issues issues to contend with.

And all that has to happen before you can legally produce the first drop of distillate... hell you don't even know if it will even work or not! And you can be sure the TTB WILL check to see if the equipment has been used prior to setup.

Honestly about the best way to set up a distillery would be to go to NZ where its legal as far as I know, get the process down, then move the entire operation over to the states.

And no way is a 100 gallon still going to cut it. IMO one would need at least a 300 gallon setup to even think about turning a profit after the initial outlay.

[Cackalack]

whoa now! Not so much concerned with the legal side of things, got me a good lawyer for that...thank God for friends who went to law school!

300 gallons you think? needs to be this big you think because of the amount of taxes? was definitely thinking a pot still

gonna check out a.d.i.

When I say loft I mean big-open-cube-tall ceiling-old industrial building-loft, here in this city that's what's considered a loft, which I'm fairly certain will fly with TTB, but again-it's more about making spirits that I'm too concerned about, and am just now learning all the legal stuff

but so as far as the heat source is concerned...

by the way, if I make this happen would anyone want a job? ha! I won't jump too far ahead

thanks yall!

[Dnderhead]

I was reading about one (lp fired) 110 gal. they used 400,000 btus to heat with. useing gas it needs to be a seald fire box with out side
combustion air and vented.
electric whould not need venting but at 400,000btu = 117228 w or 500 A. so you whould need 600amp service at 220v.(440v whould be a better )
In most areas Natural gas is about the best buy in US if it is available.
So Id say natural gas is the way to go.
a simple brick base for pot. pipe for air intake and stack for a vent, much like domestic heating whould be installed.

[dixiedrifter]

I can tell you from experience that four 5500W off the shelf water heater elements would do nicely in a 110 gallon still... and if it was insulated well you'd only have to run on about one or two of them when stripping. Thats only 91 amps @ 220V. A standard 200 amp service would be more than able to handle the load, just put each element on its own double pole single throw breaker.

However natural gas is much cheaper BTU per BTU, its just not as efficiant. Also it can fluctuate in cost depending on what the spot price is at the moment, and it can be a bit trickier to control.

Honestly I would recommend at least two stills. The first being a 300 gallon stainless steel IBC or two, or what the heck even three for your strippers and another smaller nicer still for your spirit runs. Make it to where you can move the IBC's around with a forklift and have a removable stillhead. You could even ferment and distill in the same vessel. Heck they are only about a thousand bucks... some flour to seal em up, maybe add in a large drain valve and you should be good to go.



Also your going to have to figure out something to do with the wastewater and all those spent grains... may have to have a special sewage permit. I'd even be thinking of heat exchangers to cut down on electricity and/or gas.

[stillvodka]

I have started my own legal distillery and would like to build a large still, thinkin' 100 gallons

I'm about to rent out a loft commercial space

the thing I'm not sure about in the design and construction of the still is the heat source

what would be the best way to heat 100 gallons most efficiently in the city, in a loft commercial space?

Would he be telling porky pies Don't recon he has the authority/permission to set up a leagal distillery , more like bootlegging.

[Cackalack]

excuse me?

according to the TTB you must have a commercially zoned space all set up and ready to go (in order to become federally permitted) because you must submit a layout with all your other forms etc...they wanna know what you're gonna be using, how much you plan on making, per year, per month, an agent could come before they send you the permit knocking on your door and what not to view the facility as would be on day one of production-maybe minus the grains etc.

I'm extremely serious about this I can assure you, and for sure won't be makin' no bullshit gutrot-I'm aiming to make you feel better in the morning than you was before you started drinking the night before, they're just ain't enough of a whole lot of American goodness on the legal market today


Yo Dixie-can you hook me up with a website where I can find them 300 gal IBCs for $1000 you was talkin' about

I think I like the idea of electricity better, might try to convince the landlord to let me install some solar or wind power on the roof

[rad14701]

I don't think any loft distillery is going to pass all of the requirements of the federal, state, and municipal governments... I just don't see it happening... I can't think of one fire marshal that would allow flamable or explosive materials to be manufactured above other floors that you aren't insuring or in a non-manufacturing zoned area... It just ain't gonna happen... Do your research...

As for heat, most small distilleries such as the one you are entertaining use steam heat for several reasons... First, it keeps any possibility of fire or explosion separated from the production area... Second, it can be more efficient when used properly... Again, do your research...

Nobody doubts that you want to start a legal distillery... The doubts come from the how and where...

Good luck...

[Cackalack]

this IS me doing research

thanks for the info...

I definitely can understand the not being able to be above anyone

maybe I should've just never've said "loft" ...the point is-commercial space/city, and obviously it'll be up to code with anyone and everyone who matters

I'll look into the steam option for sure

thanks rad

[Hutch-]

I can tell you from experience that four 5500W off the shelf water heater elements would do nicely in a 110 gallon still... and if it was insulated well you'd only have to run on about one or two of them when stripping. Thats only 91 amps @ 220V. A standard 200 amp service would be more than able to handle the load, just put each element on its own double pole single throw breaker.

However natural gas is much cheaper BTU per BTU, its just not as efficiant. Also it can fluctuate in cost depending on what the spot price is at the moment, and it can be a bit trickier to control.

Honestly I would recommend at least two stills. The first being a 300 gallon stainless steel IBC or two, or what the heck even three for your strippers and another smaller nicer still for your spirit runs. Make it to where you can move the IBC's around with a forklift and have a removable stillhead. You could even ferment and distill in the same vessel. Heck they are only about a thousand bucks... some flour to seal em up, maybe add in a large drain valve and you should be good to go.



Also your going to have to figure out something to do with the wastewater and all those spent grains... may have to have a special sewage permit. I'd even be thinking of heat exchangers to cut down on electricity and/or gas.

Dixie - can those IBC's be safely heated with an external heat source. I couldn't find much in the way of a spec sheet, but did find mention of an EPDM gasket that I would think would be a concern to seal. Commercial outfit may not want to slop around flour paste every run, hell it might not even be a legal option.

I agree that steam would be the way to go, but it would take some doin' to modify an IBC. Maybe someone with some knowledge could chime in on external vs. internal steam. I wouldn't know where to begin to build a proper steam jacket for external. Do search for other micro distilleries, lot's of examples of folks who built fire boxes for heating with gas.

You might do a search for "Jonathan M. Forester" and "Diary of a Distiller". He wrote a 30 chapter blog about opening up a distillery (some place on the east cost if I recall). He didn't focus on the legal/regulatory issues so much, and as you said, you are fortunate to have a lawyer for that. He covers a lot of the DIY of boot strappin' a liquor business... interesting stuff.

That said, before you spend dime one, I would look into distribution in your state. In my home state, they've made it a bit easier to open a micro distillery, but don't expect to be able to sell a bottle. Our distribution is a rachet, with most of the $ going to the middleman. Retailers don't want to use shelf space on pricier artisan booze on which they may make $2 per bottle, when they can sell the cheap stuff all day and make $1.50. And as for direct sales to consumers, or even other businesses for get it. That's the difference between the craft brewers that made the leap to a viable business, and what's holding distillers back in most states... well that and the mountains of paperwork.

Good luck. Seems to be a lot of people wantin to tell you what you can and cant do.

Hoga Company(Spain) has a 500L(132g) copper pot still listed on their site for under $5K USD. I can't vouch for the product or the company, but it's the best price I found for a pot still of that size. You might also want to look at Iberian Coppers, and Colonel Wilson's copper moonshine stills.

[Cackalack]

nice, thanks for all the priceless info hutch, I do appreciate it