What is "yeast nutrient"?

[Dr_T]

It seems like a lame question, I know.
It seems like if I'd just read,read,read I would have the answer.

I bought some 'yeast nutrient' from a homebrew shop- come to find out, it's DAP and urea. No B vitamins, no magnesium.

So, what is the most basic mix to supply yeast with what it needs?
(Assume a straight sugar wash, keeps the question simple. Other ingredients will of course have some nutrients.)

Some of that stuff I bought, plus a multivitamin, plus Epsom salts... is that correct?

Edit- Oh, what about Vitamin C? It's there to adjust the pH, not as a required nutrient?

[Husker]

Ya might give this sticky a look (here in the novice section).

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =15&t=5230

It is sugar nutrients thread.

H.

[Dr_T]

Yep- that's pretty much what I was relying on.
So, that's the most-current, most-believable list? I can take that as "the truth"?

Follow up question, from reading the main site:
Max initial specific gravity should be no more than about 1.070, which gives an abv of about 6.5% or so.
So to go higher, I need to ferment in stages, adding the sugar a bit at a time? (Or in blocks, a week apart.)
See, this is where the nutrients question comes from: if I'm adding sugar, I likely need to add nutrients.

But which, and how much? That's what I want to figure out. It's great to have a recipe to follow- but I want to understand it as well.
following a recipe is like buying a premade still- a shortcut to a result, not a step on the path of knowledge.

Thanks for taking the time to help a newb!

[rad14701]

Follow up question, from reading the main site:
Max initial specific gravity should be no more than about 1.070, which gives an abv of about 6.5% or so.
So to go higher, I need to ferment in stages, adding the sugar a bit at a time? (Or in blocks, a week apart.)
See, this is where the nutrients question comes from: if I'm adding sugar, I likely need to add nutrients.

Thanks for taking the time to help a newb!

You're finding, through thorough reading, that some of the parent site is showing its age... And as you've no doubt read here in the forums, many folks are running higher washes - partially due to nutrients...

I'm continuously experimenting in an effort to come up with answers to questions similar to yours... There may just be a better wash recipe out there - we just need to find it if it exists...

[Hawke]

Acording to the scale on my beer hydro, 1.070 is somewhere in the 8 to 9% potential range. It really doesn't matter how much neutriant you add, if your yeast is only able to tolerate 14%, it's going to die. The closer you get to the tolerance level, the more it is stessed, at which point it starts producing unwanted by-products.

[Dr_T]

@Hawke- Understood. Depending on what type of yeast. Bread yeast, 10-14%, champagne yeast maybe to 20 with luck. But there's a definite limit- and it's not 7%.

@rad- Right, that's where I'm at. I'm reading and learning, and I have more questions than answers. I can do controlled experiments to answer some of these, but I was hoping somebody else had done so already. There's people on this site that have had distilling in their families for generations, and of course humans have been handling yeast for 5,000 years. Seems like we'd know the RDA of nutrients for yeast by now. Weatgerm seems to be all the rage, but I think that it's probably because it's a rich B-vitamin source.

Here's another stumper: what's you all's opinions on how to add additional sugar?
Seems to me it'd be best to add it a bit at a time, every other day or so, instead of all at once after a week. Right? Wrong? Why/why not?

[rad14701]

Here's another stumper: what's you all's opinions on how to add additional sugar?
Seems to me it'd be best to add it a bit at a time, every other day or so, instead of all at once after a week. Right? Wrong? Why/why not?

It partially depends on how long you want to drag out your fermentation and how far you want to push your yeast... Using this method would pretty much contradict my personal goal of clean and fast ferments of an average ABV of 10% - 14%... Some folks do incrementally add sugar to their washes, however...

[Dr_T]

I do like "clean and fast".

But I have a lot of years of cooking experience, including a good bit of bread and dough work, and I know yeast doesn't really like surprises- that's why you have to put it in some diluted wash to prep it. I guess I'll just have to try both ways and see what works for me.

That's why it's an art.

[eternalfrost]

I do like "clean and fast".
and I know yeast doesn't really like surprises- that's why you have to put it in some diluted wash to prep it.

what ive been doing lately is doing a UJSM style with leaving the bottom of the wash in the fermenter and topping it off with fresh wash. leaves you with a nice strong colony already going and used to that wash.

this has worked great for my sugar washes for 3-4 generations (so far)
have had a few hiccups using it with rum washes but with those i am also adding backset into the mix for flavor...

[Dnderhead]

A bit of malt extract if you want to keep all natural

[Dr_T]

I'm not too concerned about all natural- but I do have malt.
You use just malt? No urea, no other additives?

[goose eye]

invert your suger it will keep it cleaner tastein. you get alv in the hi teens or low 20s it gonna be hotter than hell an warsh most all taste out. dependin on what type wine you makein you aint gotta put store bought yeast fertilizers an so on an so forth.
you shootin at 20s feed it in stages an keep it warm an read.

so im tole

[Dr_T]

So you see why "read, read, read" just isn't going to do it.
Guys, I appreciate all the input- each of you has done much more of this than I have, and all of you know what has worked for you.

Let's say I'm using plain sugar and aiming for 15-20%. It's just to keep down the amount of time I spend distilling; the amount of sugar, etc is the same for each percent of alcohol. (10% uses half the sugar of 20%).

So, let me ask again- what nutrients are needed for a healthy yeast culture?

Goose eye says none- invert the sugar, that's enough.
Dnderhead says malt is a good choice.
Deathwish says wheatgerm, and a lot of folks agree.
Pintoshine wrote a whole long thing, including a bit about proteins.
Proven recipes and the parent site say that urea/DAP is required, and magnesium (Epsom salt) is a very good idea.
(Pintoshine agrees about the magnesium)

I could use all of these- I have them, they are cheap, it won't hurt anything. But do I need to?

[Hawke]

I would say, for a straight sugar wash:
DAP
A couple multi-vits
and a dash of epsom salts

Nothing really needed for a grain based wash/mash (UJSSM does great without adding anything extra) Does make a great neutral as well as a passable flavored sipper.

[rad14701]

Sometimes trial end error, based on the experiences of others, is the only way to get your answers... You will always have several independent variables, like your water, that will make a difference... And all sugar will not provide the same performance, even if buying the same brand from the same store... As you can see, we cannot always provide concrete answers, even for ourselves... One thing that has been proven, however, is that the higher you try to push the ABV of your wash, the more likely you will be to run into problems...

My advice, for novices, is to start out with a relatively average ABV wash until you get the feel for things... You can get experimental and try to push the limits once you have the fundamentals down... By that time you may not end up in as big a mess and you should be better prepared to get yourself out of your trouble spot...

Want a simple source of nutrients for a sugar wash without shopping around at multiple locations...??? Use about 1/4 - 1/2 cup of pulverized Total Cereal per gallon/4L of sugar wash... It has the most minerals and vitamins of any off the shelf product, even providing a better balance than wheat germ... It might even work in flake form although I have never tried that method myself... You can shoot for about 14% and not have a stalled ferment as long as you keep the temperature up above 75F... Water, sugar, cereal, maybe some lemon juice and epsom salts, if needed, and bakers yeast...

[Dnderhead]

all you can do is try different things there is other variables as well water, temps. etc . make small batches and see what works for you.
as malt has most every thing you need but if you have extremely soft water add some magnesium sulfate( 1/8tea), gypsum.
if it has any where near the right nutrients most will work just not as good. I know of one gits water from mountain branch and adds nothing.
the lucky burger. apparently running threw the ground , Forrest, fields it picks up enough on its own.

[Dr_T]

I've got really pure tapwater here at the foot of the Rockies, no luck there. But it's clean enough to use for diluting, no need for distilled.

But the answers are upthread- use the stuff I expected, plus experiment a bit and see for myself. Then I will *know* the answer and not have to rely on anybody else's opinion. Rad's comments on Total cereal are inspirational. It shows the kind of thinking that goes into the art of this.

Thanks again to everybody for helping- I'm glad it wasn't as stupid a question as I thought it was!