Still design opinions

[Moon Masterson]

First post, and I hope I put it in the right place! For my first still, I have been considering a reflux design (Non valved). From my research, and VERY limited knowledge, this is one I feel I can build by myself. The basic design is a 10 gallon Stainless Steel milk can, with a 2" column. For a novice at brewing, is this a good choice? My goal is to produce shine comparable to the stuff I grew up with, with a little less smell. (Just can't get past that) I have been enjoying "sissy shine" made with Damson plums for years, but caught the brewing bug, and want to give it a whirl. I am not naive enough to think I won't F a thing or two up along the way, but I am looking forward to getting started. Life isn't worth living if you can't have a little fun along the way! I look forward to the responses, and my thanks in advance for your valuable time. I have enjoyed reading the posts on here, and have already answered many of my initial questions.

[Freedave]

Moon,

welcome to the forum. sounds like you have a good goal.

I'll bet some of the guys would like to know more about the plum shine. especially if you want to duplicate it, what kind of still produced it? pot or reflux? and are you wanting to make anything else?

[junkyard dawg]

If I were to throw out a total guess...

I'd say build a simple potstill... most who build reflux columns go back to potstilling so thats an easy guess.

I'd also say practice hard on the fermenting side of things to get the good flavors you are after. Making good distillate starts with good fermenting... thats where the magic is. Fortunately modern science helps us out. Good yeast and test equipment and the knowledge of how to correct any problem is much more accessible.

welcome to the forum and good luck...

[Tater]

What dog said . Welcome to forum.

[Moon Masterson]

Thanks Freedave. My "uneducated" guess would be a pot still. At the current time, my primary interest is just ordinary, and I use the term ordinary loosely, corn liquor. Again, from my limited knowledge on the subject, the reflux still offers some opportunities for brewing other things, should my interests vary in the future. It also seemed easier to build and operate than the valved version. And lastly, should I choose to do so, I could build a valve type in the future, and use the same can and top. I have decided to solder the column to a plate, which will be attached to the lid with 4 Stainless Steel bolts. The plate is the only thing I will have to outsource, and will most likely have two made should I choose this design.

The plum shine was easy, after I figured out where to find a Damson Plum tree. Turns out a friend of my parent's had about 20 of them in their yard! About 1/3 fruit, and 3 TBSP of sugar a quart. I did remove the seeds. Well, it was more of an exorcism than a seed removal. It took longer to remove the seeds than it did to find the trees, and pick the fruit! At about 6 months, it's getting righteous!

[Moon Masterson]

dawg and tater, I appreciate your comments as well. A lot of my initial research has been about the fermentation process,to include the devices to test with. I have some questions to ask in those respective forums, as well as some regarding filtering the output, but I'm not sure where to post it. I really have enjoyed reading the posts, and I am looking forward to my education!

[Dnderhead]

For test you will need two hydrometers, one low , as used in beer/wine (for the wash) and a spirits hydrometer.
as far as filtering , most discourage. other than coffee filters/ cotton and funnel or something similar.
try to use glass or stainless with any thing that comes in contact with high alcohol.
most stuff can be collected for nothing or made. as a assortment of jars ,measuring spoons, paddles,
fermenters (food grade plastic pales, courtesy of your local diner/fast food store. about 6 ft ( 2m) of plastic tubing for a siphon.
corney kegs (soda kegs) are grate if you have a lot of high proof stuff (makes a good fire proof storage container)
most of this can be picket up as needed/ found.If your going to do cooked grain mash you will need a BOP(large kettle ,bigger the better)
the list can go on, just watch the yard sales etc. we will make a "junkaholic" out of you. you will be looking at "trash" in a hole different light.
they talk about "recycling" most on hear are the kings

[smokey]

like they said you got good goal good luck to you. i am also new and still learning. i dont mean to get off topic but i have had some damson berry shine before and it was good.

[Moon Masterson]

Thanks to Dnderhead and smokey for your comments. I think I have narrowed things down a bit, but the list of questions has only increased! For what I am trying to achieve, a reflux still seems to be my best choice. ( Higher % with fewer runs, and less odor.) I am interested in flavored spirits mostly, so for now, I'll trod in that direction. Has anyone actually built the non valved reflux design as outlined on Bob Lennon's site "Build a World Class Distillation Apparatus"? I would also be interested in knowing if any of those people had made any modifications to the design? One of my questions revolves around the cooling of the column body. As it is in it's original design, there are three separate "plate" areas. One at the boiler and two more where the cooling tubes intersect the column. Since maximum reflux is in direct proportion to increased purity: A. Would raising the height of the cooling lines a few inches from their current location be beneficial? And B. Would running the supply line back through the column again to create a fourth "plate", make a significant difference? I have an ample cold water supply (42-48 degrees Fahrenheit). I feel I can offset the warmer water created by the third "plate" before it enters the condenser core, by increasing the flow rate. I have also considered cooling the column, and the condenser core separately.

[minime]

Thanks Again, from my limited knowledge on the subject, the reflux still offers some opportunities for brewing other things, should my interests vary in the future. It also seemed easier to build and operate than the valved version.

If you're referring to the model with the tubes through the column it's a very poor choice for a reflux column. That design is called CM or cooling management and is notoriously difficult to get good spirits from. If you want a good reflux still now or in the future consider either LM or VM designs for high quality output.

Good luck and welcome

[rad14701]

Moon Masterson, you really need to take even more time to read up on the craft... Your last post is almost a contradiction of terms... You say you want flavor so you want to build a valved reflux still... If you want flavor, build a pot still... If you want neutral spirits, build a reflux still...

Why people keep coming here almost worshiping that damned still you mentioned is beyond me... As mentioned, it's not the best of designs... You can do a lot better for very little more money, time, and effort, if you truly need a reflux still... Less if you need a pot still...

We can't stress enough to read, read, read... You really don't need to look any further than the parent site and here in the forums... It doesn't all come together and gel, or should I say flocculate, overnight...

[tracker0945]

MM, what you nead to get your mind around is how the distillation process affects the final taste.

Basic explanation follows.

95% abv alcohol consists of 95% pure alcohol (no taste) + 5% water (the wash taste).
This is typical of what you get from a good reflux still.
No taste (or very little) and needs to have flavours added to make it taste like what you are trying to make.

70% abv alcohol consists of 70% pure alcohol + 30% of the wash taste (carried over with the distillation process).
This is typical of what you get from a pot still after 2 runs.
Will have taste resembling what you included in the wash.
No extra flavours required.

Now you should be able to work out what type of still you need to build.


Cheers.

[Moon Masterson]

minime, thanks for your opinion. I'll look into both.

rad14701, perhaps it is you, who should read. In my initial post. I did make it quite clear, I was considering a NON VALVED reflux still. I also stated I was interested in producing something with LESS odor. Furthermore, I did read the Parent Site, which prompted my next round of questions. In my last post, as a result of the reading I DID do, I tried to clarify what would best serve my interests, and I was leaning towards a more neutral spirit. (This information was gleaned from the READING I did.) I wouldn't have know the difference between a "neutral spirit" and a poltergeist without more research. Also, I don't recall" worshiping" the design, I asked if anyone had built it, or modified it. (In case you don't think I read it, the following is a direct quote from the site, that I included in my notes: "Another resource on how to make a Reflux still is Bob Lennon's Build a World Class Distillation Apparatus site (and its FREE !). Informative & very good. Heaps of details, illustrations, & explanations". I did pay enough attention to the info, to ask some questions about the cooling. I don't know enough about any of it right now, other than try to explain it the best way I can. (Hence, "Novice" being clearly displayed under my screen name.)

Perhaps some patience, patience,patience, would better serve the people like me, who are honestly interested in the opinions and experience of the pros. If I wanted a tongue lashing, I could have stayed married to my friggin ex-wife.

Moon Masterson
NOVICE

[Moon Masterson]

tracker0945, thanks for your concise explanation. I had come up with close to the same thing, but my notes took up the front and back of a piece of notebook paper. I think I'll chuck them, and use yours! The 95% abv product is more in line with my current interests. In my initial post I mentioned shine with less smell. I know now that a neutral spirit is actually what I'm looking for. The question now is what type of reflux design would best serve my needs. I want to keep the boiler size to 10 gallons or less, and a good supply of cooling water is not a problem. Any suggestions guys? I would rather spend the time and money now, than rebuild it later.

[tracker0945]

MM,

In amongst the previous posts, there has been some sound advice.

As has been mentioned before, VM (vapour management) stills are probably about the easiest to operate, slightly more costly but easy to build and just about fool proof to operate.
LM (liquid management) are slightly more difficult to operate (but not rocket science). Bokokob slant plate design is often the popular choice, cheap and fairly easy to build, just needs fairly constant attention and adjustment while distilling.
CM (cooling management) which is the type you have been looking at is a fairly old design which has been shown to have numerous failures including one which does not produce as high a %abv as do the other 2 examples.

Just remember though, these are all reflux columns and will be of no use to you at all for making your Plum Brandy or Corn Shine because you will lose just about all of your carefully fermented flavour.
For those, you will still need a Pot Still.

Go forth and study your options.
Many examples are included on this site.


Cheers.

[rad14701]

Well, Moon Masterson, you won't last long here with an attitude like yours... You're a typical novice who thinks that everything in a post is directed towards you... Once you've been here a while, if that happens, you'll learn that not every part of a post is just about you, you, you...

We are all here to help the craft progress without having to answer the same questions over and over again... When someone comes asking for advice they don't get a choice in the advice they get... Take what you want and leave the rest...

I've said it before but it warrants repeating... Don't bite the hands you're expecting to feed you... Nip more than once and you may go hungry...

[Moon Masterson]

My attitude? Perhaps you should take some of your own advice.

[Tater]

Lets play nice .Sampling product and posting is only allowed by the Mods

[theholymackerel]

Personally, I find it extremely frickin' funny when someone asks for comments, and then blows his top when he gets the comments he asked for.

[Hack]

Moon,

Alot of people come here asking about the design you are considering using. It was the first still design I found when I began research. It's not that you seem to be worshipping the design, Its that so many are attracted to it. I understand the attraction. It's a well explained design with a clean well organized web site. However, as many of the reflux guys have explained it isn't the best design and they have the experience to back that up. If you really want a reflux there are better designs.

However, from what I've read of your posts I'd strongly recommend you look at building yourself a pot still. A reflux still is good for one thing, making high proof neutral spirit. It's a vodka making machine. If you really want flavored spirits, the best tool for the job is a pot still.

You want to make shine without the horrible smell. You can do that with a pot still. I suspect the horrible smell you associate with shine is actually because of crappy cuts and/or poor fermentation and distilling practices. There's enough info and helpful people here to get you over those hurdles fairly quickly. It's not difficult to make whiskey on a pot still that's as good or better than what you can get at the bottle shop once you get a few essential skills sorted out.

Lastly, you are thinking of building a reflux because it sounds like the distillation process will be simpler because you don't have to double run it. I understand not wanting the hassles of a double run. That's why I built a thumper on my pot still. My runs usually take about 3-4 hours and then I've got hooch ready for aging. A reflux run usually takes much longer than that, about twice as long I beleive. Also, many of the reflux guys still prefer to make a stripping run and then do a spirit run for best results.

If you really want to make good corn liqour, a pot still is the best tool for the job.

[xx7777xx]

Moon:

If you want clean spirits that I would highly recommend a valved reflux. There are pretty east to build, and probably the easiest to operate. You might want to consider a modular design that can easily be converted between put and reflux. Here are some design pics to describe what I'm talking about:

Column Design


Still Head Design


Fully Assembled Design


Here are some great pics of what a similar build:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6081

[Moon Masterson]

Hack, thanks for your comments and opinions. Some of the reading I did on here, got me leaning towards the reflux design. I got a better understanding of the primary product I was looking for, and with that, a better understanding of a design that would likely better serve me. I also understand that the probable cause of the odor and taste I was trying to avoid, was likely attributed to a process that could have been carried out differently. As I understand it, a reflux design can be converted from a "vodka" maker, to something that would produce a palatable shine. The pot design on the other hand, is used for a primary type of product only. Again, this is from what I have read on here, and from posts and mails I have received. Most members, such as yourself, have been very helpful.

xx7777xx, thanks for your input, and for the designs. Your comments with respect to the advantages of a "conversion", mirror most of the information thus far from people who have and use both types. It's also the reason I am leaning towards this type of design.

As a result of suggestions made by some of the members, I have a copy of The Complete Distiller, on it's way to me now.

[Hawke]

7's
That design is a VM (vapor management) still, NOT a valved reflux (pctured below)
That being said, The VM IS a very good design. Easy to build and easy to run. It can be built without so many expensive fittings as well.

[xx7777xx]

7's
That design is a VM (vapor management) still, NOT a valved reflux (pictured below)

Thanks for the correction Hawke, I think my stilling brain was distracted by the work I'm prob supposed to be doing right now

x7

[Moon Masterson]

Hawke and xx7777xx,

I am not overly concerned with the initial cost difference, as much as I am with ease of operation. Is it not going to be harder to learn how to use the valved model, than the non valved? I'm not being lazy, just trying to keep it as simple as reasonably possible. My two smokers already look like androids!

At the risk of being shot without the benefit of a blindfold or cigarette, I'll ask a few questions about the photo Hawke posted. I assume the right column is packed, and the two water lines are in contact with the sides to help with cooling. If that is the case, it seems most of the condensation for the reflux would occur on the sides. It's my basic understanding that an ideally cooled column, provides "plates", or "levels", where the differential temperatures in these areas, cause the returning liquid to "wash" back through the rising vapors.

The water lines change sides at the double T, and go into a liebig? style cooling assembly. It's hard to tell from the photo, but on the left side of the double T, it almost looks like some kind of plate. Is that part of a valve assembly? If so, what does that valve do?

Also, does this style use a thermometer?

Please forgive any errors in my observations, I'm trying to do this without looking at my notes.

[Hawke]

On my picture of the valved reflux, the cooling lines are attatched to a coil inside the 3" shell. The reflux is done through the valve/tube that goes back into the column. (the drip tube is centered inside the column). The original design calls for a thermo to be installed in the top cap of the column. On mine, you can see the thermo port on the right side, this allows the probe to be possitioned in the center of the cross-over.
I only ran this still for a few runs before I built an inline slant plate. It isn't too difficult to run, but does require fiddling with throughout the run.
I'm currently modifying that one into a VM, simillar to the design posted by xx7777xx
This style is much easier to run

[xx7777xx]

Moon:

I would suggest you do a little reading on the differences between Liquid Management and Vapor Management as I think it will help you more easily understand the still pictures you are seeing. In VM the reflux condenser condenses all vapor that is not being pulled off from the top of the column. Reflux ratio is controlled by how much vapor is being returned to the column vs how much vapor is being collected. In LM all the vapor is condensed and valves used to adjust how much liquid is returned to the column vs collected. Both options require coolant supply for the condenser at the top of the column. Hawke's picture has the coolant lines for the condenser nicely routed on the sides of the column for structural integrity and easy of use.

[Tatt2d]

Heres a post that i found to be very helpful in learning the difference between all the different types of columns.
Its a Sticky under the Column Distillation and Design forum.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =17&t=6151

[WhiteLightening]

Hi fellas, Im a first time poster but a long time doer. I think youll definately want a convertable still head ie. potstill and a LM or VM column. I personally strip everything on my pot head and do spirits on my LM head. Much said on the forum about this and HUGE benefit in product quality. Good Luck.

[Hawke]

I don't get too excited about neutral spirits, and won't use the flavoring crap, so have retired both of my columns.
I now only do potstill runs, an ocasional UJSM or rum, but mostly grain mashes. If I really stuff up a batch or collect enough feints, I might run one of them again.