World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Putting older posts here. Going to try to keep the novice forum pruned about 90 days work. The 'good' old stuff is going to be put into appropriate forums.

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FeralPig
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World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by FeralPig »

I built the valved reflux version of the World Class Distillation Apparatus. I made a 12" condenser (based on advice from these forums). I made the column 2" X 34". The condenser and collector cup (where the valves are attached) is 22.5 inches. This keg is 14 inches diameter and 23.5 inches height. I had a great deal of trouble getting the still sealed properly. Finally the flour/dough idea from these forums solved this problem. Next still will be something involving a tri-clover clamp mechanism on an unmodified keg.

Question: I want to run this as a pot still. Can I just remove the packing, close the reflux valve, open the output valve and just manage my input heat to do this?

**********************
I ran the still with water several times and finally with alcohol yesterday. I purchased 1/2 gallon 190 proof grain and mixed that with 3.5 gallons of water. This was a final cleaning run. The distillate will not be for drinking this time. Before anyone mentions it; I realize I didn't really do a "normal" run since I was screwing with the valves but this was a learning run and a cleaning run.

It took about 30 minutes for the temperature to get to 80F and then it shot to 130F in just a couple of minutes...then on to 170F very quickly after that. It happened so fast that I had not turned on cooling water and had some steam coming from the condenser. That freaked me out a bit.

Question: I assume this was because I had very few contaminants in the wash so I skipped the acetone and methanol stages and went straight to Ethanol?

**********************
I let it run in full reflux (output valve closed and reflux valve wide open) for about 20 minutes. The temperature sat on 170+/- the entire time. Finally I opened the output valve and started collecting distillate at a rate of 1 drop per second. It was cool to the touch. Rubbing it on my fingers it felt like rubbing alcohol. Evaporated quickly and left no residue. Column temperature never varied from 170F.

Next I closed the reflux valve and left the output valve open. Output rate went up to a steady stream the size of a pencil but was initially cool to the touch. Temperature of the still climbed to 178-180F within 10 minutes. At that time I noticed steam in my collection jar and the distillate was hot. I believe the forums have stated this is dangerous. I opened the reflux valve fully and within 2 minutes the temperature was dropping back to 172 and the output slowed to 1 drop per second and was cool again.

Question: Surely I do not control temperature with the reflux valve so I assume I was just applying too much heat for the valve settings mentioned?

Question: So if I am running a reflux run, I must run with more heat applied than if I run as a pot still?

***********************

I ran this for 2 1/2 hours and collected about 1 quart. I assume I could get nearly all of my 1/2 gallon of 190 proof back if I ran long enough. But the output I collected measured only 161 proof with my hydrometer (yes, did the temperature correction as well).

Question: Shouldn't I get closer to 190 proof since basically my wash was 1/2 gallon of 190 proof and 3.5 gallons water? If I had ran slowly with constant reflux would my abv go up?

************************

The hot distillate really freaked me a bit. I will likely run this as a pot still often and I obviously do not want steam or hot distillate at the output. I very much hope this was caused by my applying too much heat.

I can't thank everyone enough for the advice. I hope I get to a point where I can help others.

This is so much fun it ought to be illegal...wait, it is. never mind. :cry:
This is so much fun it ought to be illegal..wait..never mind.

51" LM and a 24" Pot still with 62" Liebig with turbulator and spiral coolant swirler thingy. Both running on an unmodified keg with Tri-clover clamp attachment.
FeralPig
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by FeralPig »

I just realized I failed to convert units of measure to metric. :oops: My apologies to the international crowd. I will do so next time.
This is so much fun it ought to be illegal..wait..never mind.

51" LM and a 24" Pot still with 62" Liebig with turbulator and spiral coolant swirler thingy. Both running on an unmodified keg with Tri-clover clamp attachment.
maoule
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by maoule »

You're doing fine. Yes you can run it as potstill. Try it with 1 or 2 scrubbers and without. When you're doing a spirit run, the temps. do go fast..be ready. The hot distillate is not as much of a problem as is hot alcohol vapor; be sure you keep the latter to a minimum :wink: To get your % up, practice makes perfect, keep learning how your equipment operates and you'll be pulling 95%. Good luck.
2" Bokmini, VM and potstill heads
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minime
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by minime »

FeralPig wrote: Question: Surely I do not control temperature with the reflux valve so I assume I was just applying too much heat for the valve settings mentioned
Your still temperature is absolutely controlled by reflux! Until you become vary familiar with your still you should open your reflux valve fully and control your still primarily with your collection valve. For clean neutral at 95+ that's the simplest way to get there. A gentle boil is all that's needed for a 2 inch pipe.
FeralPig wrote:Question: So if I am running a reflux run, I must run with more heat applied than if I run as a pot still?
That is not necessarily true for neutral but may be useful when operating for rum or other flavored drinks.

Your column could be a bit longer and a small liebig condenser to cool your distillate is definitely in order. You're on the right track though so a bit more studying and practice and you'll be cranking out the good stuff.
Congrats to you



edit sp
Last edited by minime on Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dutchmancreek
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by Dutchmancreek »

Firstly, congratulations on going with the valved reflux instead of starting with the internal reflux as so many others (including myself) did. You would just have eventually changed anyway. This way you start a step ahead.

This set up can certainly run flavored spirits. I ran UJSM in mine for quite some time with good results before I went into pot stilling. I tried it with one or two scrubbers and ended running it with no scrubbers at all. One thing you might consider is to add a small liebig condenser to the takeoff. It doesn't have to be big...3/8 inside 1/2 will do. Run your water through this condenser and up to your coil condenser(in the lower fitting and out the upper on the liebig). It'll cool your final condensate. Another thing to think about is insulating the column.

Like Mini said, just leave your reflux valve open. As a matter of fact, it's not really necessary at all....I only have one valve on mine, on the output, and have never seen the need for a reflux valve.

Have fun,
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RJB510
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by RJB510 »

This topic is very interesting, as my setup is virtually exactly the same. 32" X 2" Stainless pipe, 10" x 2" Valved Reflux Condenser head, with 1/4" wound pipe for a condenser about 8" long. 1/4" takeoff and reflux pipes.
In terms of boiler, i just have a 12L pot with a 2400w Kettle element fitted inside it (I don't have a way to control temp.) I don't find i'm losing any vapors from the top of my head either.

I have found after running my still for a while, that i can collect over 1L an hour at 95%. I assume that this is a good rate (and that is triple refluxed through the valve and packing :D ). I also find with mine that with the packing inside the column, it will be refluxed quite a few times before I actually end up getting to the point of collection and having to reflux that again, so I might be able to speed things up more and you could probably look at that yourself, just check and see the purity before refluxing also. Unless someone can see a pitfall why it should be slower?

I've just tried running as a pot still, and i found that it work quite well, however, i feel that my collection rate is too fast. More like a stripping run. I would assume that i should slow it down to get a more pure product??
How do you determine purity from a pot still?

So would i be right in assuming that if you run no packing, and have the reflux valve open fully, that you will be able to control the rate by the takeoff and everything else will just go to boil again? or will this ruin flavour also?
Maybe somone want to give some pointers or comments.

Cheers
Attachments
This is my setup as it currently stands, I don't have the condenser in for the photo. Comments? I realise it doesn't have needle valves, They're really $$$ and i find it works fine with the ball valves.
This is my setup as it currently stands, I don't have the condenser in for the photo. Comments? I realise it doesn't have needle valves, They're really $$$ and i find it works fine with the ball valves.
DSC02161compressed.JPG (48.71 KiB) Viewed 3014 times
Q-bIc
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by Q-bIc »

RJB510 wrote: So would i be right in assuming that if you run no packing, and have the reflux valve open fully, that you will be able to control the rate by the takeoff and everything else will just go to boil again? or will this ruin flavour also?
Maybe somone want to give some pointers or comments.
i would properly just collect everything, and not let anything go back into the boil
Hawke
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by Hawke »

When running any of the liquid management stills as a potstill, I would highly recomend the small auxillary liebeg to cool the distillate. Not sure where the post is, but someone built a mini using 1/4" soft in a piece of 1/2". Looked a little like a bowtie.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat
rad14701
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by rad14701 »

Hawke wrote:When running any of the liquid management stills as a potstill, I would highly recomend the small auxillary liebeg to cool the distillate. Not sure where the post is, but someone built a mini using 1/4" soft in a piece of 1/2". Looked a little like a bowtie.
Follow the link in my sig for information on that secondary condenser...
FeralPig
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by FeralPig »

I added the Leibig and it absolutely took care of the issue. I am not sure I could overheat the output distillate if I wanted to. :D

I used the same Leibig design on my new pot still as well. It takes an amazingly small amount of water to work.
This is so much fun it ought to be illegal..wait..never mind.

51" LM and a 24" Pot still with 62" Liebig with turbulator and spiral coolant swirler thingy. Both running on an unmodified keg with Tri-clover clamp attachment.
RJB510
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by RJB510 »

Yeah, i looked at the small leibig, What is the point of cooling the output distillate? Isn't it the same stuff no matter what temp it is at?
or has it got something to do with the precious stuff escaping? or is it for reading an alchometer? Mine is quite hot, but i don't get any steam from my output.
It probably does help to taste test i suppose.
Also, on a side note, if it tastes wrong... Should you just add it to the current boiling wash to start all over again? or should you add it to the next batch?
Wai‘ona
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by Wai‘ona »

Dutchmancreek wrote: Like Mini said, just leave your reflux valve open. As a matter of fact, it's not really necessary at all....I only have one valve on mine, on the output, and have never seen the need for a reflux valve.
I have gathered the materials to build a valved reflux still simular to the design in Building A Home Distillation Aparatus. I'm going modify the design by replacing the copper cap and needle valves for the reflux tube and the draw-off tube on the bottom of the condenser. Instead I plan to use reducing fittings to go from the 2" T at the base of the condenser to a 1/2" T. Out of the 1/2" T will come the reflux tube (return to column) and draw-off tube (where the good stuff comes out).

I had planned to put 1/2 " ball valves on both the reflux tube and draw-off tube, but what I read from Dutchmancreek is that the valve on the reflux tube is not necessary. The valve on the draw-off tube is able to control the reflux all by itself.

I am hoping to run this reflux still as a pot still too by removing the packing from the column and leaving the valve on the draw-off tube wide open. If there is no valve on the reflux tube, can this still be run successfully as a pot still? Can this still be run successfully as a pot still in the first place?

I was thinking that reducing the reflux tube from 1/2" to 1/4" before it enters the column might help channel most of the condensate into the draw-off tube. Plus, make drilling a smaller hole into the column for the reflux tube possible.

This St. Patrick's Day will be the 20th anniversary of the brewing of my first batch of homebrew. I'm hoping to celebrate this St. Paddy's day by distilling my first batch of spirits.
I'll have what the gentleman on the floor is having.
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by Husker »

Wai‘ona,

If you are going to stick with this design (work, but there are better, and ones that cost less), I would recommend simply putting a cap below the T. Then drop a line out the bottom of that cap (bend the bottom of the cap a little to get just a touch of slope, so the liquid drains better). On this line, you put your needle valve (ball valve 'might' work, but good needle valve is MUCH more control).

Then simply drill into the wall of this chamber made with the cap, about 1/4 to 1/2" up. Run a straight pipe (1/4" or so) back over to the column, with just a touch of down slope. This is the return. You want the return to be as high as possible within the column (but with enough down slope that liquid will overcome any vapor pressure. The part of this tube that extends into the cup, should have a little bit of 'roof' on it (simply cut the tube sort of like a hypo-needle). This roof will keep any falling liquid from going into the tube, and keep the ONLY liquid returned, liquid you are not taking off. Thus you can run 100% reflux (close the output valve), or run 0% reflux (assuming your valve is big enough, simply open it wide open). You can get any percentage of reflux between 0% and 100% with practice.

The offset head has some drawbacks, but still works fine. There are better designs for VM type stills (the inline is cheap and in balance). Some of the problems with the offset is the cost of building (more fittings), the weight (heavy sucker), and the off center weight. The weigh and offset from center is not an issue if you are using a keg, but is an issue if trying to use a stainless pot as your boiler.

H.
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Wai‘ona
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by Wai‘ona »

Husker wrote:The offset head has some drawbacks, but still works fine. There are better designs for VM type stills (the inline is cheap and in balance). Some of the problems with the offset is the cost of building (more fittings), the weight (heavy sucker), and the off center weight. The weigh and offset from center is not an issue if you are using a keg, but is an issue if trying to use a stainless pot as your boiler.
The off-center weight has me thinking. I am using a half-barrel SS sankey beer keg for the boiler, connected to the 3' x 2" column with a tri-clamp connector. Will the tri-clamp connector hold the column to the keg tight enough to insure a seal? I've used tri-clamp connectors on brewery hoses. They seem pretty study.
I'll have what the gentleman on the floor is having.
minime
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by minime »

Wai‘ona wrote:
Husker wrote:The offset head has some drawbacks, but still works fine. There are better designs for VM type stills (the inline is cheap and in balance). Some of the problems with the offset is the cost of building (more fittings), the weight (heavy sucker), and the off center weight. The weigh and offset from center is not an issue if you are using a keg, but is an issue if trying to use a stainless pot as your boiler.
The off-center weight has me thinking. I am using a half-barrel SS sankey beer keg for the boiler, connected to the 3' x 2" column with a tri-clamp connector. Will the tri-clamp connector hold the column to the keg tight enough to insure a seal? I've used tri-clamp connectors on brewery hoses. They seem pretty study.
Pretty sturdy? Tri-clamps are as good as it gets for solid connections! :D
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by Husker »

I do not think the tri-clamp would have any problems at all. Since this is a keg (even though pony), it can support the slightly off balance, offset head. However, be sure the still is supported by something sturdy (or on the ground for a elect heated boiler).

My original still was a 1.5" offset head. I wish I had started with a different still head. That one works, but a better design for a LM (liquid management) is the boka inline. It is cheaper to build, and weighs less, and is more stable (center of gravity wise).

There are many here who really like the VM type still (vapor management). It is also a very fine still, IF all you want to produce is tasteless neutral spirit.

I find the LM type to be a little more versatile. It will do neutrals about as good as the VM, but will take more baby sitting along the run than the VM does. However, with the VM, you can also run it as a stripping still (or semi hybrid pot still), by removing the column (if it can be removed), or removing packing and insulating the column, and running with the take off valve wide open. Either of the boka inline or the offset head can be run in this manner, as long as they are properly designed to do 100% reflux and 0% reflux. A properly built 2 plate boka slant plate inline can do this, as can the offset head, AS LONG as the condenser can knock down vapors fast enough, and the output valve and output line is large enough to handle 100%.

H.
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FeralPig
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by FeralPig »

Wai‘ona wrote:
Husker wrote:The offset head has some drawbacks, but still works fine. There are better designs for VM type stills (the inline is cheap and in balance). Some of the problems with the offset is the cost of building (more fittings), the weight (heavy sucker), and the off center weight. The weigh and offset from center is not an issue if you are using a keg, but is an issue if trying to use a stainless pot as your boiler.
The off-center weight has me thinking. I am using a half-barrel SS sankey beer keg for the boiler, connected to the 3' x 2" column with a tri-clamp connector. Will the tri-clamp connector hold the column to the keg tight enough to insure a seal? I've used tri-clamp connectors on brewery hoses. They seem pretty study.

The Tri-Clamp is the way to go. I did it on my pot still. If I were a burly man, I could use the setup as a club with the column as the handle. I wish I had built a VM. Might convert the offset head.
This is so much fun it ought to be illegal..wait..never mind.

51" LM and a 24" Pot still with 62" Liebig with turbulator and spiral coolant swirler thingy. Both running on an unmodified keg with Tri-clover clamp attachment.
Wai‘ona
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by Wai‘ona »

Thanks for the good news about the tri-clamp connectors. They never come loose or leak in the brewery. I found a SS 2" tri-clamp to MPT adapter from Brewhaus. Soldered a FPT to 2" coupling on the bottom of my column to attach it to my sankey keg boiler.

So I'm wondering, how much trouble will it be to clean out the sankey keg boiler through that 2" opening on the top? The guy at Brewhaus says a short length of SS link chain can be dropped into the keg and swirled around to act as a scrubber. I have sankey keg mash tuns and wort kettles in my home brewery. They are pretty easy to clean, but I've cut the tops to make much wider access. I jet out my sankey keg fermenters through the 2" opening with a brass hose nozzel. That works well too, but I never apply heat to the fermenters, so nothing get cooked onto the bottom.

BTW a half barrel keg is a full size beer keg at 15.5 U.S. gal. My boiler weighs 33 lbs empty, so it will be about 130 lbs with the still attached and 10 gallons of wash in it. Propane fired "water heater" style burner for heat source.
I'll have what the gentleman on the floor is having.
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Re: World Class Distillation Apparatus - Valved ver- First run

Post by Hawke »

Unless you are distilling on the grain, or have something with a lot of pulp, a simple spray, swish and dump should clean out the boiler.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat
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