Understanding Heads

Information about fruit/vegetable type washes.

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Bagasso
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by Bagasso »

WhiteLikker wrote:The study was trying to reduce methanol for regulatory compliance, not to reduce heads. The EU says you're allowed x mg/L and that's it.

Personally, I don't care about methanol. I don't even really care about heads in general but rather some really harsh tastes that seem to come with the heads in some of my fruit washes.
That is why I was pointing out that the main focus of the study didn't help to answer the question that you made in the OP.
If you start off with wrong models, perfectly logical conclusions lead to a bad product. If you think heads = methanol then the logical conclusion would be to add sugar to your fruit washes.
I'm not sure how logic took you there. Besides if you think heads=methanol you probably also think methanol comes out early so you are keen to make a good fores/heads cut which leads to a better product even if you don't understand the science behind it.

Then you find a site like this and you hear people say over and over not to get greedy and make proper cuts and that tightens up your craft even if you do end up with less hearts.
The study was the first thing I ever read that was even close to a scientific treatment of distillation. Between that and the discussion in this thread my understanding of distillation has changed considerably:
I remember seeing it a few years back but since the discussion was centered around methanol and since I only do sugar washes I didn't bother looking deeper into it.
WhiteLikker
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by WhiteLikker »

Bagasso wrote: I only do sugar washes
Ahh, that's why you don't feel my pain!

But, your discussion was very helpful in getting focussed on the real issue. Thanks!

The original question, was about 'excessive amounts of heads'. You pointed out heads are mainly esters and someone else said esters are fruity. Too 'fruity' is definitely not the problem. The problem is a harsh flavour that starts in the heads and keeps going after the rest of the headsyness is long gone. It is a taste and not a smell. So, talking about 'excessive amounts of heads' was probably misleading.

Someone else mentioned that his blackberry brandy turned out all heads. I bet you dollars to doughnuts that he is not talking about it being too fruity either. I'd also guess he started with a fairly high abv wine and that the nasty flavour is one of those heavies that carry over when alcohol is high. If that's the case then diluting the distillate to very low abv (5%?), letting it sit for a while to allow the heavies to drop out and re-running it might clean it up.

Cheers!
Bagasso
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by Bagasso »

WhiteLikker wrote:The original question, was about 'excessive amounts of heads'. You pointed out heads are mainly esters and someone else said esters are fruity. Too 'fruity' is definitely not the problem. The problem is a harsh flavour that starts in the heads and keeps going after the rest of the headsyness is long gone. It is a taste and not a smell. So, talking about 'excessive amounts of heads' was probably misleading.
I think one of the problems is oversimplification. Esters are fruity is one of these.

Did you know that it is estimated that 10% of the population registers that taste of cilantro as soapy and that depending on your genes you register aloholic drinks as sweet or bitter?

So while I believe MDH when he says he didn't think ethylacetate smelled solventy I'm thinking it might just be something personal. Also I never got an answer as far as the taste, which is what you were really talking about, or whether the volitiles he brought up are what makes up the angel's share.
Someone else mentioned that his blackberry brandy turned out all heads. I bet you dollars to doughnuts that he is not talking about it being too fruity either.
Again, you are assuming that all esters are fruity.
I'd also guess he started with a fairly high abv wine and that the nasty flavour is one of those heavies that carry over when alcohol is high.
You seem to be guessing in the direction that suits your theory. Why not guess that he ran too hot and smeard the heads throughout the run? That might also have something to do with the abv of the distillate coming over and what it brings with it.
If that's the case then diluting the distillate to very low abv (5%?), letting it sit for a while to allow the heavies to drop out and re-running it might clean it up.
You know, the study mentioned one thing that acted this way and you seem to want to apply it to every case. Plus this one thing, isoamylacetate, isn't even a "nastie", it's banana flavor.

Now the tables turn. I'm sure the guy complaining about heads throughout his blackberry brandy was not talking about it being too fruity.

Don't get me wrong, I think this thread brought up some good bits of information but I think we need to realize that some things, while true, don't apply in every case.

This reminds me of an old thread on airing out and sugar bite. I bumped the old thread and the OP came back saying that he didn't care about what airing out did anymore because he had learned that dropping the abv to 7 or 8% took care of it. Sound familiar?
MDH
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by MDH »

Bagasso wrote:So while I believe MDH when he says he didn't think ethylacetate smelled solventy I'm thinking it might just be something personal. Also I never got an answer as far as the taste, which is what you were really talking about, or whether the volitiles he brought up are what makes up the angel's share.?
It is certainly from personal experience, but you have to consider the following facts:

1. Spirits gradually oxidize as they age. Many of the best spirits are dozens of years old. I can tell you that a 50 year old Armagnac or 25 year old Scotch is definitely not heady. Ethyl-acetate presence is significantly greater in aged spirits than new ones, despite that they are often softer and smoother on the palate. This offers something of a paradox if the ethyl-acetate assumption is actually true.
2. Yes, many volatiles such as aldehydes and ketones will make up the angel's share.
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.
Bagasso
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by Bagasso »

MDH wrote:Ethyl-acetate presence is significantly greater in aged spirits than new ones, despite that they are often softer and smoother on the palate. This offers something of a paradox if the ethyl-acetate assumption is actually true.
They also have more acetaldehyde so the only answer that I think might fit is the old timer's "good flavors cover bad flavors" and it seems to be covering both.

A more scientific answer might be that humans can only register 3 flavors or so at a time so, the detection threshold of some things might change once when they are surrounded by all those flavor compounds in flavored likker.

Might also explain why some people say why flavored distillates are easy and vodkas/neutrals are hard to get right.
Yes, many volatiles such as aldehydes and ketones will make up the angel's share.
Of course but even after airing out or barrel aging you have distillate that can be headsy. What causes that?
WhiteLikker
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by WhiteLikker »

Bagasso wrote:You know, the study mentioned one thing that acted this way and you seem to want to apply it to every case. Plus this one thing, isoamylacetate, isn't even a "nastie", it's banana flavor.
No. The study says "...some components, mainly esters, the solubility of which depends very much on the alcohol content and which can be transferred into the distillate only as long as the alcohol content in the steam phase is still high." Isoamylacetate is just mentioned as one example where you can't rely on boiling point to predict when it comes over. It has a BP of 142C vs 65C for methanol and comes over much earlier.

As a sugar wash guy, you may not be able to appreciate what some of us are seeing in the fruit washes. We are not just talking about a bit more heads than sugar washes. We are talking about different stuff and stuff that doesn't cut off as cleanly as sugar wash heads.
Bagasso
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by Bagasso »

WhiteLikker wrote:No. The study says "...some components, mainly esters, the solubility of which depends very much on the alcohol content and which can be transferred into the distillate only as long as the alcohol content in the steam phase is still high." Isoamylacetate is just mentioned as one example where you can't rely on boiling point to predict when it comes over. It has a BP of 142C vs 65C for methanol and comes over much earlier.
No need to get defensive. Honestly nobody can say what does or doesn't act this way.
As a sugar wash guy, you may not be able to appreciate what some of us are seeing in the fruit washes. We are not just talking about a bit more heads than sugar washes. We are talking about different stuff and stuff that doesn't cut off as cleanly as sugar wash heads.
C'mon now, there is you and the blackberry guy. I have read a bunch more success stories with fruit than 2 on this forum.

This is the problem with talking taste over the net. You don't even know what you have or if it even compares to what other fruit runners are getting. You may be on to something but then again it mught be just you doing something wrong. I mean you already said that you pushed for higher abv and that is probably one of the most common mistakes.

Like I pointed out earlier in the thread you went the long route to end up at:
So: don't worry about methanol, keep abv low, make generous cuts and throw the heads and tails in with the next run.
WhiteLikker
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by WhiteLikker »

Bagasso wrote:
WhiteLikker wrote:I'd also guess he started with a fairly high abv wine and that the nasty flavour is one of those heavies that carry over when alcohol is high.
You seem to be guessing in the direction that suits your theory. Why not guess that he ran too hot and smeard the heads throughout the run?
Hey Appalachia-Shiner, do you want to chime in on this? Did you start with a fairly high abv wash, compared to what others are recommending for a fruit wash (<6%), or did you run hot enough to smear your heads throughout the run?
WhiteLikker
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by WhiteLikker »

Bagasso wrote:No need to get defensive. Honestly nobody can say what does or doesn't act this way.
Definitely don't want to come across as defensive. I'm here to learn and contribute when I can. I'm a novice distiller. But fairly seasoned when it comes to figuring stuff out.
Like I pointed out earlier in the thread you went the long route to end up at:
So: don't worry about methanol, keep abv low, make generous cuts and throw the heads and tails in with the next run.
Yes, I do like things to make sense. (I'm just wired that way.) And, yes, that usually takes more work than taking an old timer's word for it. (Please don't interpret this statement as a lack of respect for old timers.) Without having gone through this mental exercise, throwing heads in with the next run would not make sense.
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by ranger_ric »

I have come to a new realization of where the term "pot Luck" came from... After running 9 generations of feints from spirit runs I realize that on some "feints runs I have a plethora of hearts and on others it doesnt seem to gel and it a lot of it tastes like heads. However after making it through the feints runs and maybe a second feints run if it is heads I call it heads and chunk it. Only so much hearts you can get, the law of diminishing returns....
So "Pot Luck" comes from how things work out on a spirit run and not how the tortilla pie tastes at the church cookoff......

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Bagasso
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by Bagasso »

WhiteLikker wrote:Without having gone through this mental exercise, throwing heads in with the next run would not make sense.
I can relate and I'm sure there are more than a few of us that gotta learn the hard way.

I aslo like the technical side of things but this hobby is so complex that simple answers usually only apply to some situations and even then only partially. There are just too many variables.

General tips need to be kept general for this very reason. Run slow and make good cuts are a couple. You can't tell someone how slow or how much to collect because you have no way of knowing what they are charging their still with. You will often see someone say "I do this and it works for me" and all anyone can do is try it and there is always the chance that it might or might not work for them.

I hope you don't think I was knocking the way you approached things. I really do understand it but I was just pointing out some of the limitations. That study helped you gain some insight into what happens with some fruit distillates. Some things brought up might apply to all distillates but other things might not apply to grain, sugar based distillates or even distillates using other fruits.
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by FranklinNewhart »

Bagasso wrote:
WhiteLikker wrote:No doubt, ethyl acetate is an important component of fores/heads. But, are the big and nasty heads that I'm seeing in my sugared up apple wash really just because more acid makes more ethyl acetate and that's it? If that's the case, a sugar wash with lots of acid (added lemon juice or acid blend) should also produce big bad heads.
No, a specific acid (acetic acid) and ethanol give you ethyl acetate. Other acid/alcohol combinations will give other esters which may or may not be "headsy".
That would be an interesting experiment that could eliminate methanol (or its products) as a culprit in heads. Has anyone done that?
That is what the link shows. Both the fores (which was really a fores/heads cut) and the "filtered and diluted" cut had "less than 5mg/l" (trace amounts) of methanol. In comparison fresh OJ is supposed to have more than 30mg/l and store bought juice is supposed to have an average of 140 mg/l and neither smell or taste like heads.
I am doing that right now and it is being discussed in another thread, The wash is Lemons and Sugar. Have not distilled it yet because it is still fermenting. Will keep it posted on here as well as the other thread about Geist.
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by FranklinNewhart »

WhiteLikker wrote:
Bagasso wrote:The study you posted has a bunch of good information but you have to remember that they went into the study with the same idea that most have, "methanol is concentrated in the fores" and "methanol is the reason behind bad distillates". They found out different and despite having a lot of good info and it being backed by actual lab results they don't really offer any tips on reducing heads.
The study was trying to reduce methanol for regulatory compliance, not to reduce heads. The EU says you're allowed x mg/L and that's it.

Personally, I don't care about methanol. I don't even really care about heads in general but rather some really harsh tastes that seem to come with the heads in some of my fruit washes.

If you start off with wrong models, perfectly logical conclusions lead to a bad product. If you think heads = methanol then the logical conclusion would be to add sugar to your fruit washes.

The study was the first thing I ever read that was even close to a scientific treatment of distillation. Between that and the discussion in this thread my understanding of distillation has changed considerably:

1) Methanol does not come out with the fores or heads. Once methanol is mixed with ethanol it is difficult to separate them. That's why the government uses methanol to poison industrial alcohol. It wouldn't work if you could just boil it off.

2) We focus way too much on boiling points when we try to predict what comes over when. It's much more complicated than that. It depends on what sticks to what and what is soluble in what etc.

3) Some heavy, non-volatile, high boiling point (and maybe nasty) substances can make it into the distillate but, only as long as the alcohol concentration is high. Once the alcohol concentration drops below a certain point, those nasties can't carry over any more and stay in the pot.

The last point explains a bunch of stuff that never made sense to me before. For example, the practice of throwing previous heads in with the next run. If you don't get rid of any of the heads, you'd expect them to just accumulate with each run. But, what actually happens is that only a limited amount of nasties can get carried over in each run and the rest stay in the pot and get tossed out. And, the lower abv of the mash, the less nasties can get into the distillate.

So: don't worry about methanol, keep abv low, make generous cuts and throw the heads and tails in with the next run.
In the laboratory, mixtures containing ethyl acetate are commonly used in column chromatography and extractions. Ethyl acetate is rarely selected as a reaction solvent because it is prone to hydrolysis and transesterification.

Ethyl acetate is fairly volatile at room temperature and has a boiling point of 77 °C (171 °F). Due to these properties, it can be removed from a sample by heating in a hot water bath and providing ventilation with compressed air.
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Re: Understanding Heads

Post by johnnyv »

WhiteLikker wrote:No. The study says "...some components, mainly esters, the solubility of which depends very much on the alcohol content and which can be transferred into the distillate only as long as the alcohol content in the steam phase is still high." Isoamylacetate is just mentioned as one example where you can't rely on boiling point to predict when it comes over. It has a BP of 142C vs 65C for methanol and comes over much earlier.
Isoamylacetate may have a BP of 142 C but it has a flash point of only 25 C, also it would be more likely to be "thrown out" of water as it doesn't like to be in water rather than a water/ethanol mix.
Maybe you get much less but it is far more notable, methanol is difficult to detect by smell as it has a very high odor threshold.
The distillate is certainly coming out at over 25C so there will be some amount of Isoamylacetate at low temperatures.

Even reflux neutral hearts I am certain are not just ethanol + water, there will be all sorts of stuff as well, the key I guess is if the concentrations are within odor and taste bud detection thresholds.
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