"Calvados" recipe idea

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"Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:35 am

Hi so next week I want to do "Calvados" from 25L not concentrated apple juice the idea instead of adding 1kg of sugar per 10L of juice I been thinking to collect 20-30 apple skins and macerate it with 1L of 96% alcohol for a week or two after apple juice fermentation is finish mix everything together of course filter the skins and distill it.
Is 30 skins of apples will gonna improve some flavour ? It's seems like it's better idea than just adding some sugar to make more "brandy" like some people do what you guys think ?

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Expat » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:51 am

It would likely be a lot better if you pulped and sqeezed the 30 apples and added that to the juice. I don't think the skins are source of the flavor, but it's your experiment.

Sugar would only dilute the flavor you do capture, as would the L of high proof neutral.
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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:09 am

Expat wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:51 am
It would likely be a lot better if you pulped and sqeezed the 30 apples and added that to the juice. I don't think the skins are source of the flavor, but it's your experiment.

Sugar would only dilute the flavor you do capture, as would the L of high proof neutral.
I heard skins have the most flavour but I can be wrong so you mean to 25L store bought apple juice add to that 30 apples grind with cheese grater for example ferment everything together after fermentation squeeze the pulp filter and distill correct ?
Sorry for my English btw :)

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Expat » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:17 am

Virandell wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:09 am
Expat wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:51 am
It would likely be a lot better if you pulped and sqeezed the 30 apples and added that to the juice. I don't think the skins are source of the flavor, but it's your experiment.

Sugar would only dilute the flavor you do capture, as would the L of high proof neutral.
I heard skins have the most flavour but I can be wrong so you mean to 25L store bought apple juice add to that 30 apples grind with cheese grater for example ferment everything together after fermentation squeeze the pulp filter and distill correct ?
Sorry for my English btw :)
You could ferment on the pulp or squeeze first. With the pulp I believe a larger fores cut would be appropriate. A food processor would probably be easier than a cheese grater I think.
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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by cranky » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:30 am

I'm not trying to be condescending but where did you get that process and why do you think it would make anything like Calvados?

I don't have time to get into exact details but Calvadose is made by using specific apples picked, pocessed, fermented, distilled and aged a certain way and does not have added sugar or apples macerated in neutral. It's essentially fermented apple juice with nothing added but yeast then distilled.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:34 am

cranky wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:30 am
I'm not trying to be condescending but where did you get that process and why do you think it would make anything like Calvados?

I don't have time to get into exact details but Calvadose is made by using specific apples picked, pocessed, fermented, distilled and aged a certain way and does not have added sugar or apples macerated in neutral. It's essentially fermented apple juice with nothing added but yeast then distilled.
I know exactly how Calvados is made :) that's why I put "Calvados" if I would have to make proper Calvados I would need 3 different types of apples (bitter acidic sweet) make cider later age it and distill it anyway I am trying make something similar I might try just do on apple juice without neutral or sugar but I don't think I will have loads of end product but probably way better quality

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by stillanoob » Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:08 am

There is some truth to a lot of flavor being near and in the skin. In fact to determine if an apple is suitable for cider I nibble a little bit of skin and flesh near the skin. Those flavors are the ones that last the longest in cider, after the fermentation is fully complete. However, that is not the total of the apple flavor. I have made a lot of cider but only one batch of apple brandy. With the plan you outline I think you would get a whiff of the apples at best. So it might well be drinkable as a sugar wash but wouldn't be a brandy by any stretch.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:34 am

stillanoob wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:08 am
There is some truth to a lot of flavor being near and in the skin. In fact to determine if an apple is suitable for cider I nibble a little bit of skin and flesh near the skin. Those flavors are the ones that last the longest in cider, after the fermentation is fully complete. However, that is not the total of the apple flavor. I have made a lot of cider but only one batch of apple brandy. With the plan you outline I think you would get a whiff of the apples at best. So it might well be drinkable as a sugar wash but wouldn't be a brandy by any stretch.
Right so the only option is I can do 25L of store apple juice from no concentrate, add cider yeast no sugar no neutral then probably would be better abit then ?

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by NZChris » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:12 pm

If you have spare peel, chuck it in. I use a lot of different peels in my distilling because that is often where there is a lot of flavor. E.g., my Mango Gin method only uses peel.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:09 pm

NZChris wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:12 pm
If you have spare peel, chuck it in. I use a lot of different peels in my distilling because that is often where there is a lot of flavor. E.g., my Mango Gin method only uses peel.
Chuck it in you mean while fermenting the juice or chuck it in the keg ? They will not gonna burn ? Or as I said macerate loads of them with neutral, filter the peels combine neutral with fermented apple juice and distill ? :D

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by cranky » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:38 pm

If you want apple brandy make apple brandy. Apple brandy is made from cider which is made from apples or apple juice, yeast and time. Stop thinking you can get it by soaking apple skins in neutral.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:45 pm

cranky wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:38 pm
If you want apple brandy make apple brandy. Apple brandy is made from cider which is made from apples or apple juice, yeast and time. Stop thinking you can get it by soaking apple skins in neutral.
I think you don't understand me, alot of People when making apple brandy adding for 10kg of apples or 10L of apple juice 1kg of sugar but instead of sugar I wanted to use neutral with apple skins that would macereate for some period of time later filter the skins combine fermented apple juice and macerated neutral and distill it, that would mean I would have slightly more "brandy" and hopefully it would not affect taste that much just when I would use only sugar, eventually if I would want only make from apple juice how much could I expect from 25L ?

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by NZChris » Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:47 pm

Well, actually, you sort of can make something doing that, but I wouldn't call it brandy and especially not Calvados.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by cranky » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:12 pm

Virandell wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:45 pm
cranky wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:38 pm
If you want apple brandy make apple brandy. Apple brandy is made from cider which is made from apples or apple juice, yeast and time. Stop thinking you can get it by soaking apple skins in neutral.
I think you don't understand me, alot of People when making apple brandy adding for 10kg of apples or 10L of apple juice 1kg of sugar but instead of sugar I wanted to use neutral with apple skins that would macereate for some period of time later filter the skins combine fermented apple juice and macerated neutral and distill it, that would mean I would have slightly more "brandy" and hopefully it would not affect taste that much just when I would use only sugar, eventually if I would want only make from apple juice how much could I expect from 25L ?
I understood you perfectly. You want to half ass it and asked for an opinion. I gave you an honest opinion from someone who primarily makes brandy and especially apple brandy and I will repeat that opinion. If you want apple brandy make apple brandy and stop trying to half ass it and get someone to tell you it's a good idea because it isn't.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pm

cranky wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:12 pm
Virandell wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:45 pm
cranky wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:38 pm
If you want apple brandy make apple brandy. Apple brandy is made from cider which is made from apples or apple juice, yeast and time. Stop thinking you can get it by soaking apple skins in neutral.
I think you don't understand me, alot of People when making apple brandy adding for 10kg of apples or 10L of apple juice 1kg of sugar but instead of sugar I wanted to use neutral with apple skins that would macereate for some period of time later filter the skins combine fermented apple juice and macerated neutral and distill it, that would mean I would have slightly more "brandy" and hopefully it would not affect taste that much just when I would use only sugar, eventually if I would want only make from apple juice how much could I expect from 25L ?
I understood you perfectly. You want to half ass it and asked for an opinion. I gave you an honest opinion from someone who primarily makes brandy and especially apple brandy and I will repeat that opinion. If you want apple brandy make apple brandy and stop trying to half ass it and get someone to tell you it's a good idea because it isn't.
Righty apple juice with cider yeast then with no sugar or neutral it is then :) how much I can expect from 25L ? About 2L ?

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by NZChris » Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:58 pm

Virandell wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pm
Righty apple juice with cider yeast then with no sugar or neutral it is then :) how much I can expect from 25L ? About 2L ?
Work it out with a calculator, starting with the Brix of the juice.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by NZChris » Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:23 pm

In another thread you were worried about covering the element, so before you do a 25l ferment, work out how much low wines you need to keep your element covered for the spirit run. 25l might not make enough.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:39 pm

NZChris wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:23 pm
In another thread you were worried about covering the element, so before you do a 25l ferment, work out how much low wines you need to keep your element covered for the spirit run. 25l might not make enough.
I already found out when I been doing Odin Gin I need 12L of liquid to cover the boiler inside

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by NZChris » Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:16 pm

You need a much lower element in your boiler if you want to double distil a brandy. Doing a rough estimate, I would guess you need at least three stripping runs worth of ferment, four is probably better, so 75-100l ferments, less if you do a 1.5.

You don't need to move your existing element, but I suggest you do need another one much lower down. I can barely get my fingers under my bottom element.

You could consider using a plated column, but they are an expensive thing to build or buy just to save money on the initial costs of larger ferments or to avoid installing a lower element.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:12 am

NZChris wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:16 pm
You need a much lower element in your boiler if you want to double distil a brandy. Doing a rough estimate, I would guess you need at least three stripping runs worth of ferment, four is probably better, so 75-100l ferments, less if you do a 1.5.

You don't need to move your existing element, but I suggest you do need another one much lower down. I can barely get my fingers under my bottom element.

You could consider using a plated column, but they are an expensive thing to build or buy just to save money on the initial costs of larger ferments or to avoid installing a lower element.
If I would want to double distill and for example if I would end up with 2L of brandy I can't add to my keg 12L of water and 2L of brandy and distill it second time ? Or I will loose alot of flavor like that ?

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by NZChris » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:41 am

Make something, keep good records of what you did, then use them to make the same, or better, product next time.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Tabucowboy » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 am

The only difference between Apple Brandy and Calvados is:
1."Calvados is a variety of brandy made from apples (and sometimes pears). Like Champagne, Calvados has to be grown in a certain region in order to be called Calvados, and that region is Normandy in northern France."
2."Calvados first lives as an apple cider, made by fermenting apples. It is then distilled and aged in oak casks, where it is required to remain for at least two years to be properly classified as Calvados under the AOC (appellation d'origine contrôlée)."
3."In order to abide by the AOC, Cognac must be made from 90% Ugni Blanc grapes (known as Trebbiano in Italy) and a small selection of others are allowed to make up the rest.
Calvados, however, is a much more diverse spirit. The 30&40 duo distillery tell me there are around 300 different varieties of apples available under the Calvados AOC, and the list is constantly growing — you just have to prove that the apples you are using are native to the Normandy region. Therefore, distillers can use dozens of different varieties of apples to make just one expression of Calvados."
Full article - https://www.businessinsider.com/calvado ... it-2018-11

I have to stop reading all the posts or my Girlfriend is going to kill me for how many fermenting barrels I have in the basement.
Everytime i read more i want to try something new.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:11 am

NZChris wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:41 am
Make something, keep good records of what you did, then use them to make the same, or better, product next time.
I already did with the gin :D but I wonder if I will end up with 2l of apple brandy after first distillation I wonder if to second one I can put 12L of water to cover the boiler and 2L of apple brandy or I will lose the taste becouse of the amount of water ?

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Virandell » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:13 am

Tabucowboy wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 am
The only difference between Apple Brandy and Calvados is:
1."Calvados is a variety of brandy made from apples (and sometimes pears). Like Champagne, Calvados has to be grown in a certain region in order to be called Calvados, and that region is Normandy in northern France."
2."Calvados first lives as an apple cider, made by fermenting apples. It is then distilled and aged in oak casks, where it is required to remain for at least two years to be properly classified as Calvados under the AOC (appellation d'origine contrôlée)."
3."In order to abide by the AOC, Cognac must be made from 90% Ugni Blanc grapes (known as Trebbiano in Italy) and a small selection of others are allowed to make up the rest.
Calvados, however, is a much more diverse spirit. The 30&40 duo distillery tell me there are around 300 different varieties of apples available under the Calvados AOC, and the list is constantly growing — you just have to prove that the apples you are using are native to the Normandy region. Therefore, distillers can use dozens of different varieties of apples to make just one expression of Calvados."
Full article - https://www.businessinsider.com/calvado ... it-2018-11

I have to stop reading all the posts or my Girlfriend is going to kill me for how many fermenting barrels I have in the basement.
Everytime i read more i want to try something new.
Thanks buddy :D
I am the same with mine demijohns for wine demijohn for sugar wash keg column :D

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by cranky » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:25 pm

Tabucowboy wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 am
The only difference between Apple Brandy and Calvados is:
1."Calvados is a variety of brandy made from apples (and sometimes pears). Like Champagne, Calvados has to be grown in a certain region in order to be called Calvados, and that region is Normandy in northern France."
Not quite. The apples must be drops although shaking the tree is allowed, they cannot be picked off the tree. The apples are grated rather than crushed then left to rest to develop aromas and flavors as well as oxidize before pressing. When the pulp is pressed it is gently pressed yielding no more than 65% of the total weight of the apples in juice and pressure is released and the pulp stirred during this process to keep flavor uniform. This provides a richer flavor than a hard pressed juice.

The unpasteurized juice is then fermented slowly over a long period of time and allowed to rest a considerable amount of time, sometimes up to a year before distilling. This is all done for a reason.

Just plain old "apple brandy" can be made with any apple juice. It can be heavily pressed pasteurized apple juice or even concentrate and fermented any number of ways and still be apple brandy but the whole process makes a huge difference.
Tabucowboy wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 am
2."Calvados first lives as an apple cider, made by fermenting apples. It is then distilled and aged in oak casks, where it is required to remain for at least two years to be properly classified as Calvados under the AOC (appellation d'origine contrôlée)."
The casks aren't just any oak barrel, they are well used oak barrels, although some makers will place the brandy in a new toasted uncharred barrel for a very short amount of time before moving it to the used barrel but the barrels used for the long term aging are well used, only toasted and not charred so they don't impart excessive oak flavor.

So you see Calvados is not just apple brandy made in a certain region, it is apple brandy made from certain apples (or apples and pears) and picked, processed, pressed, fermented, distilled and aged in very specific ways that aren't required for plain old apple brandy.
Tabucowboy wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 am
I have to stop reading all the posts or my Girlfriend is going to kill me for how many fermenting barrels I have in the basement.
Everytime i read more i want to try something new.
This hobby is very addictive, I have so many fermenters I have lost track of them all.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by cranky » Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:51 pm

Virandell wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:52 pm
how much I can expect from 25L ?
You see that can only be answered by you. My apples, and thus my apple juice vary wildly on sugar content. Some of my apples this year were only 10 brix (approximately 1.040 S.G. or 5.2% potential alcohol) and in some years some other apples I pick can run as high as 22 brix ( 1.087sg or about 12% potential alcohol) and others land anywhere in between. So unless I have a brix, S.G. or potential alcohol reading, I can't say what you can expect.

Now if your potential alcohol were say 6% that means there would be approximately 1.5l of pure alcohol in the mix and you could probably get as much as 2l of low wines. If you are doing a single run with cuts you might expect around 1.5l of brandy after tempering. In truth things can vary depending on so many factors so I don't bother trying to figure it out in advance, I get what I get.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by NZChris » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:01 pm

At 6%, I'd expect around 5l of 27% low wines, not even half way to reaching the element for a spirit run.

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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Tabucowboy » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:48 pm

Here is the entire decree from the 'I.N.A.O. Institut National des Appellations d'Origine', anyone wants to read it. (translated French to English by Google)
Calvados.pdf
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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Expat » Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:18 pm

Tabucowboy wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:48 pm
Here is the entire decree from the 'I.N.A.O. Institut National des Appellations d'Origine', anyone wants to read it. (translated French to English by Google)

Calvados.pdf
The descriptive details are great... the EU protectionist bureaucracy slant (i.e. you can only make it in certain regions of france) is BS, much like champagne.
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Re: "Calvados" recipe idea

Post by Corsaire » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:25 pm

I strongly disagree.
Those rules were made because lots of unscrupulous sellers made an inferior product and placed a well known name for quality on it.
How would you feel if you bought an iPhone at a premium price but discovered it was a cheap pos? Or your 12yo scotch turns out to be neutral spirit out of a South American still with a bunch of flavorings and colorings added?

Didn't the same thing happen with bourbon? We can make the exact same thing here yet aren't allowed to call it bourbon.

It's more about protecting cultural heritage. They don't forbid anyone from making apple brandy in the same way, just don't allow it to use their name.
They're less of an ass than some copyright holders.
It also protects the local farmers, since producers can't snap up bulk juice from who knows where.

And it's not like the US doesn't have its protectionistic sides. I'm all for that as well.
You've nothing to prove, you make some damn fine wines. Just come up with your own names.
In Europe we have Cava, Vinho verde, Prosecco and a few others that can give Champagne a run for its money.

And best of all, you're still free to call the product you make calvados if it's for your enjoyment, just don't sell it. The op can even call this apple skin ginlike concoction Calvados for all I care. As long as he doesn't try to sell it as such.

Getting off my soapbox now.

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