Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

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NormandieStill
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by NormandieStill »

Given the way that yellow label yeast works (or indeed, any low temperature enzyme that works in parallel with the yeast) I don't really see how you can measure the abv. Normally you would compare start and end gravities, but since the starch is being converted continuously this won't give you any meaningful information. The only way I could imagine would be to still it and compare the abv over the first litre (for example) to a set of known washes.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sarge410884 »

I don't disagree, I just known what I have seen. Since another of distillers have no experience with yellowlabel and this year first experience with it, I don't know what more I can say.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by NormandieStill »

What was your method? What were the readings? It might just be a misunderstanding about how hydrometers and refractometers work. You wouldn't be the first
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Quite a few people here and on other forums are using that yeast......none get anywhere near 17%.
The yeast pack tells you what the optimum grain to water and yeast ratios are....as well as optimal fermentation temps .....none of those add up to that sort of ABV from what I have seen.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sporacle »

I'm in the middle of a run of Yellow Angel yeast and steamed corn, I figure I'm around the 6 or 7 mark for abv. Using 1kg per 4l it yields about 20% less than the same volume of UJSSM on a strip run down to about 30bv. Could see no way you could get it to 17 :)
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sarge410884 »

How did you determine the abv since a sg for starch does exist?
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sarge410884 »

I am saddened by some of your responses to my post. To participate I understood that participants experiment with recipes etc. So far I am be challenged for trying to get a quick high, erroring in what I am reporting and essentially mis-
representing that results, yet I have not seen any posting the amount of abv, only conjecture about what I've seen. Granted I am new to this but I don't feel that I have stated or done anything to deserve some of the remarks that I've seen. Maybe this is a closed club and I don't belong here.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sporacle »

Not at all Sarge I'm sorry if you felt that I was talking down to you. Not trying to challenge you, I just put the post to show how my corn and Angel Yeast compared, I don't do a sg on that recipe so my abv is a bit of guess based on a tried and true recipe and what it yields.
I guess what people are trying to do is try to figure out how you achieved 17abv on a corn mash, this to me does not seem possible, so this is a place where we all come to learn and people are genuinely trying to help you figure out how you arrived at that figure. :D
My advice would be to not worry about sg or abv, stay within the grain to water ratios recommended, work on your conversion follow the pitching instructions and monitor temps, wait till its done and run it. Don't get hung on the little stuff
Cheers and good luck
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

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Thanks I really appreciate your comments
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by The Baker »

Hang in there, Sarge. It's not that we don't like you!

I have never found a more helpful group than this and one other.

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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sarge410884 »

Thanks
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by NormandieStill »

I sent this by reply to your email, but I'm reposting here for the sake of future searches.

A hydrometer or refractometer measures the density of a liquid. The calibration on the device makes some assumptions. In the case of one calibrated for sugar solutions (often in brix in the USA) the assumption is that the difference in density between your solution and pure water is caused by dissolved sugars. In the case of one calibrated for alcohol the assumption is that your liquid is a solution of alcohol in water with nothing else present. The problem comes when this assumption is not true. In your case you're (I assume) trying to use an alcohol refractometer to measure the abv of your mash, but there's other stuff in your mash. Dissolved proteins, unfermentable sugars etc. These falsify the reading.

Normal procedure for determining the abv of a mash / wash is to take a gravity reading at the start and at the end. There's a formula which then allows you to calculate the abv from the difference in these readings. You're actually measuring the amount of sugar that has been consumed and then calculating the abv based on the efficiency of yeast at converting sugar to alcohol. With yellow label yeast you can't do this because the conversion of starch to sugar is happening at the same time as the conversion of sugar to alcohol. The only way to measure the abv is by distilling but you can guesstimate it using an online recipe builder. Plugging your numbers into the OG/FG calculator at brewers friend (I assumed 7.5 gallons of water total) and assuming some pretty good efficiencies due to the enzymes in the yeast, I get an OG of 1.046 which would give you an abv of a little below 5% assuming that all the sugar was consumed. Even assuming 100% for the starch conversion, you won't get more than 5.5%.

Edited to change a "can" into "can't". My proof-reading skipped over that several times.
Last edited by NormandieStill on Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sarge410884 »

Hey thanks I've been pulling what little hair i have out trying to figure this out.
Thanks so much,
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Thanks for helping to sort that out Normandie, just saved me a heap of typing.
Sarge as stated by others we are trying to help not be A holes, you don't always get the answer or response that you want to hear/ read here.....but you will usually learn from that answer.
Stick at it....there is a lot to learn.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by The Baker »

Edited to change a "can" into "can't". My proof-reading skipped over that several times.

I can never distinguish between the spoken 'can' and 'can't' in the American accent.

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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by bluc »

Sarge410884 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:55 pm I will check again get back to you. This was done with yellow label angle yeast and I checked it with a refractometer And
a hydrometer. Thanks
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There is no way a refractometer or hydrometer will work with angel yeast. I dropped an ispindel into a brew and here is output. As enzymes convert yeast converts. The big spikes are when I bumped the hydrometer(ispindel) while stirring disregard.
angel yeast final (1).jpg
angel yeast final (1).jpg
I do 30kg grain to 80l water which i estimate at 10%abv a fellow distiller did 40kg to 80l with no additional hearts. I highly doubt you got to 17%abv with this yeast
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sarge410884 »

Thanks for your help in clearing this up. Could we assume that using the yellow label is just the first step enabling a more simple way to get flavor? The second step might be to go forward with a more traditional fermentation. Meaning,adding sugar and yeast to the mash and start another fermentation on the yellow label mash? Thanks so much for your input.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by NormandieStill »

The yellow label is replacing the traditional mash step (saccharification rest at around 67C) with a long slow process at room temp. Other than that it's no different so you can certainly then make a gumbalhead on the spent grains to try and pull out some residual flavour.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by bluc »

+1 if you add sugar to an all grain mash you actually lose flavour. More alcohol but slightly less flavour.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sarge410884 »

Thanks I am fermenting a vert small amount as an experiment.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by squigglefunk »

I really doubt any enzyme or mold will break down unmilled, uncooked cracked corn at room temp in a length of time you'd be happy with? Even with rice recipes the rice is steamed first and can still take weeks right? Corn is just so much harder/denser to me. Getting good conversion will require milling or cooking IMO.
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sarge410884 »

I did mill the corn and the rice plus cooked the rice for 10 minutes, the resulting abv was about 6 percent, rather disappointing
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Sporacle »

Sarge410884 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:25 pm I did mill the corn and the rice plus cooked the rice for 10 minutes, the resulting abv was about 6 percent, rather disappointing
Sarge410884
Nothing wrong with an abv of 6%, if the conversion was pretty easy, the ferment went without any issues and the end result tasted OK I'd be more than happy with that yield, there are ways to get higher yields and some people here state they have good success with that. I know a way to get 18% and I'm not doing that ever again.
Consistent yields of 6 to 8% with happy yeast, that's my goal :D
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Re: Breaking down cracked corn WITHOUT heating?

Post by Nanacooks »

XXXs4eyes wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:44 pm Great topic, antDoctor !

I bought some ‘Shanghai Yeast Balls’ from the local Chinese herb and medicine shop to try a rice wine. Pretty fascinating stuff - it seems to be a complicated mess of mold and yeasts that break starches into sugar and then ferment. Smells amazing and seems to work at room temperature.

As mentioned above - check out the angel yeast thread. Sounds similar but I don’t think it’s the same as these mystery balls.

I tried some on some cracked corn after I cooked it quickly in an instant pot. I’ll post a full report once I’m done but it’s clearly breaking the corn down after 9 days. Liquified about half already and smells like sweet cake. Yeast balls were like 50 cents too.

3F9731EB-937D-407F-9F64-AD95D61B180F.jpeg84B537FF-FE1D-45B3-8A71-11C2E8B362C6.jpeg
I know this is a bit old, but do you mind sharing your final results and thoughts? I was researching this exact topic, thinking it could be a great way to do an all corn beverage.
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