Well preliminary results are in, and they are a success!
Last night I used my standard no scorch oven mashing technique in a 22qt graniteware stockpot, I weighed out approx 8lbs of producer's pride cracked corn and mixed in 60 grams of Rid-X septic treatement. The pot was topped off to about 3/4 of an inch or so to the top with hot 45 degree tap water (ph 7.6, pretty hard).
Then the whole apparatus was placed into the oven for 4 hours at 230 degrees with occasional stirring a time or two just to see how it looked.
As you can see below, the results are quite interesting. When these pics were taken, the heat was off for about 2 hours and it was still about 70 degrees in the grain bed. Instead of being a nasty geletanized viscous mess, the whole thing was LIQUID with just a little bit of stickyness when the grain was rubbed. There was no foaminess. The corn kernels had about all the white part gone, the remainder was soft and pliable with fingers and the hard outer seed coat was easily rubbed off.
This morning afte it hal all cooled down I went and pulled a sample just for shits and giggles to take a specific gravity reading.
OK DD,
Your experiment looks great so far… but are you going to carry it to it’s logical conclusion?
Are you really going to ferment and distill that stuff … and drink it???
In the old days, this is the point somebody calls a Double Dog Dare
– but it ain’t gonna be me {GRIN}
I have a morbid curiosity about this post – kinda like the rubber neckers driving by a fender bender where they slow down and hafta look or reading the National Enquirer in the checkout line.
You know you were brought up better but you can’t resist.
Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana Groucho
I think you may have a false reading on the hydro. You should have used just the clear liquid for the test.
It does look like it broke things down nicely though.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat
I let the protein settle and the hydro reading remained the same... its pretty wild how much it will actually clear if given time.
I'm going to see if I can come up with some strainer bags and more pots... nice thing about those graniteware canners is you can have them for like $12 or so apiece... theoretically you could cook three or four of them and have enough for a run.
astrangebrew wrote:OK DD,
Your experiment looks great so far… but are you going to carry it to it’s logical conclusion?
Are you really going to ferment and distill that stuff … and drink it???
In the old days, this is the point somebody calls a Double Dog Dare
– but it ain’t gonna be me {GRIN}
I have a morbid curiosity about this post – kinda like the rubber neckers driving by a fender bender where they slow down and hafta look or reading the National Enquirer in the checkout line.
You know you were brought up better but you can’t resist.
I'm with astrangebrew on this one. I'm having a hard time imagining myself drinking something mashed with a septic tank treatment.
It's simple enzymes, shouldn't be anything there to cause problems.
You may need to take a larger foreshot, as I'm sure it broke down more of the protiens and celulose.
Did you do an iodine test?
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat
I did a little research,( http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... oduct.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) and found that Rid-X has four enzymes, Cellulase (for digesting toilet paper, vegetable matter and some foods), Lipase (for digesting Fats, oils and grease), Protease (for digesting Proteins) and Amylase (to digest Starches). I didn't see anything on any other pages about Gluco to finish the job of making sugars out of starches, and I, personally, would like to hear from others( more knowlegeable about chemistry than me) as to the safety of the other components, their by-products , and their safety in this application.
DD, have you tried this process with the usual enzymes?
If this works well, I wouldn't mind retiring the SMOP stirring night at all!
Master Bruce Lee said," The best style, is NO style."
I've had a LOT of practice at having no style.
I think I was the first to bring this up. I have been using the product for 16 years for it's intended use. Other than possibly some blue dye I believe it is just enzymes. After running 2X through my pot still, I would bet it will all have been removed anyway. As far as the TP part, I have read on this forum where guys are using TP as a filter. I haven't enough experience to try a corn mash yet but I will give it a go when I get my still to the point I am happy with it.
Don't use Rid-X! Don't put anything in your product that isn't food grade. Do use food grade enzymes. You can get them from milehidistilling.com among other places. They are reasonably priced and will work better than the Rid-X. There is no reason to use a product that you can't be sure of the safety of. Use the correct ingredients and your product will be safe and most certainly taste better!
This is quite interesting, I never thought of using Rid-X to ferment a mash. The whole thing seems rather risky, albeit VERY interesting. It would be cool to know what strange compounds were produced by that enzyme cocktail. I'm gonna have to agree with big j though, it isn't food grade and just think about it - making tasty booze not only depends on converting sugars to ethanol but the various other compounds produced which flavor the drink, almost all of which are derived from sugars. The use of non-sugar based enzymes like proteases and lipases would produce unknown compounds from a wash that would normally only be subjected to sugar breakdown. So the oils and structural elements of the corn (or what ever sugar source one might use) would enter the fermentation equation forming God only knows what.
I, for one, support fearless experimentation. The worst that's gonna happen is you get some stinky strippings and dump the lot. Do it slow and watch the head temp, that will give a little clue as to the composition. I find the fact that this involves an enzyme that goes after cellulose very interesting.
There's only a very slight chance that these enzymes would create durable toxic compounds, since if it did the health authorities would be putting out warnings about Rid-X causing problems with ground water. Many small water systems (primary only treatment) would be having fits if this stuff generated toxics since these systems usually have a considerable number of septics in the same area.
The ambitious with access to a research library might wish to pursue the literature on the specific enzymes if they can be identified.
snuffy wrote: by snuffy » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:44 am
There isn't any evidence to support the belief it might be harmful.
http://msds.reckittprofessional.com/cus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow ... 0893_r.pdf
There isn't any evidence to support the belief it might be harmful.
Actually Im really impressed that something that is designed to clean the septic is that non reactive or harmful.. it certainly beats dumping draino down your sink... that stuff 'll eat the skin right off your hand....
I also had some initial concerns regarding the use of Rid-X but did some additional research and now feel that there shouldn't be an issue using it in a mash... To be honest, the product is more harmful in its natural dry state, when it can become airborne and enter your respiratory or digestive systems... Being as it is enzymes designed to promote bacterial growth, once inhaled or ingested it will fuel bacterial growth... However, once it runs its course in a mash, has been exposed to alcohol, and is distilled, it will become inert...
There are no actual bacterial spores in the Rid-X, which was my initial concern... Also, if there isn't any additional cellulose in the mash then it won't produce any additional methanol because the enzymes can only work on what's in the mash and can't create what isn't already in there... Therefore, while not labeled food grade I'd be comfortable using Rid-X enzymes because they're just normal enzymes in a box with a picture of a septic system on it, but that's just me...
This is one of those issues where extensive research and debate are welcomed... Perhaps one of our chemist or biologist members can chime in with some additional input from a more professional point of view...
designed to clean the septic is that non reactive or harmful..
Ah ha, that's where lots of the confusion lies, I believe.
Septic treatments aren't caustic soda or strong acids or anything nasty like that. In fact, those things are the reason most septic system owners should consider using rid-x or other septic treatments. What these do is promote a -healthy- septic system. If all we ever sent down the drain was raw sewage(shit/piss/puke), there would be no need for treatments, since all the natural bacteria is present to decompose the solids. The problem lies with the fact that we wash dishes with soap, do laundry and add bleach(which is nothing more than sodium hypochlorite, which is the chemical name for liquid chlorine, the stuff that is most likely used by your community to sterilize your drinking water), and who know what else we all dump down into our septic systems. So, in the real world we have natural bacteria from our human waste, and a good bit from food waste that gets washed down the kitchen sink, and left alone, these would all decompose the same way they do in nature. But then we also add soaps and bleaches, which kill-off the good bacteria in the system, and if the system gets unbalanced enough to go sterile, we have an antiseptic system, and all the solids(shit, ass wipe, the carrot your kid wouldn't eat, etc, etc, etc) will quickly build up, overflow into the septic bed(field) and plug it up. You now have a $10,000 mess to dig up and re-build.... Kept healthy, a septic system "eats" its solids and only water will flow to the bed, and will work happily and trouble-free for decades, with only the occasional pumping out of the tank to remove those solids which couldn't be broken down naturally. Not at all unlike our ferments, is it? We give the yeasts something to eat, and they break it down, in the process of, their by-product being gas, and alcohol. A septic's main by-product is heat; even in the far north with frozen ground, the systems produce enough heat to remain working.
So.., now you know, the rest, of, the story! Rid-X isn't a bad chemical, it's a healthy one, and like Rad suggest, its enzymes won't break down or convert what isn't there. The distilling process is also a great way to clean and separate stuff, also. We could, in theory, run the septic system's overflow water in our stills and get pure, clean water, after all.....
We should be more concerned with what touches our distillate after it comes off the condenser; leads, plastics, etc, etc, etc, after the fact, are where the real dangers lie, and we're all up on those issues, right?
I'm generally someone who doesn't like to repeat myself but I think it is necessary here:
Don't use Rid-X! Don't put anything in your product that isn't food grade. Do use food grade enzymes. You can get them from milehidistilling.com among other places. They are reasonably priced and will work better than the Rid-X. There is no reason to use a product that you can't be sure of the safety of. Use the correct ingredients and your product will be safe and most certainly taste better!
Big J wrote:I'm generally someone who doesn't like to repeat myself but I think it is necessary here:
Don't use Rid-X! Don't put anything in your product that isn't food grade. Do use food grade enzymes. You can get them from milehidistilling.com among other places. They are reasonably priced and will work better than the Rid-X. There is no reason to use a product that you can't be sure of the safety of. Use the correct ingredients and your product will be safe and most certainly taste better!
Cheers,
J
Ok Chill. Now is the time for you to give reasons not to use this. Not just say not to. Show reasons your against it with proper backup from reliable sources .Id like to see some proven info supporting it either way . Tks management
BigJ, I agree with you on principal, but fact remains that not everyone lives in the US, not everyone has credit cards for on-line purchases, not everyone's comfortable having their name in a place like Milehi's books for the feds to pour through, and not everyone has access to these enzymes otherwise(think Eastern bloc countries, middle east, so forth). Instead, let's put our collective heads together, and see if we can't fault this product. I was skeptical also, but that MSDS, which is highly regulated and often appears scary as hell when you look at every day products, sure doesn't show anything of concern. I'm still much more concerned for those here who use garden fertilizer and such, which are know to contain heavy metals, in their wash. A handful of enzymes sure seems harmless at this point.
Did a Google for the first ingredient, Cellulase. Found this on the first click. A dietary supplament, called Digestin. It contains all four of the enzymes used in Rid-X.
Cellulase enzymes & Cellulose Fiber Information
Cellulase enzymes digest cellulose fiber, and aids in malabsorption. The cellulase enzymes catalyze the hydrolysis of cellulose fiber to cellobiose (a simpler cellulose chain). Cellulase enzymes are present in intestinal bacteria. The cellulase enzymes break cellulose fiber down to beta-glucose (blood sugar).
Cellulose fiber is poorly digested by humans and has little nutritional value, however, they are very important for the structure of cell membranes. The food industry has added many types of natural, semi synthetic, or totally synthetic forms of fiber, like cellulose fiber, in order to create thickness to foods, as well as to increase over all fiber content. Since humans poorly digest cellulose fiber, taking a digestive enzyme product, like Växa's Digestin, that contains cellulase enzymes is not only necessary, but also vital for healthy cells.
The cell membranes, which surround the cells, can be considered the most important part of the cell. The cell membranes separate vital chemicals and structures needed to protect the cell from the environment, which may contain free radicals, chemicals, and structures that are harmful to the cell. They also help regulate the types and amounts of molecules pulled from the environment into the cells.
Try Växa's homeopathic medicinal, Digestin, which contains the powerful cellulase enzymes, as well as other important digestive enzymes: Lipase, Amylase, Protease, Lactase, Sucrase, Maltase, plus 30 additional ingredients, such as Marshmallow Root, Papain, Papaya Leaf and much more!
Digestin is doctor-formulated, natural homeopathic medicinal with no side effects and has helped countless people with digestive problems and can help you as well.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat
Hi All - keep it safe, keep it natural. As I stated, there is no good reason to use Rid-X or any other ingredient that is not food-grade when there are perfectly acceptable alternatives that are. Can't/won't get food-grade enzymes off the internet? Do what people have been doing for thousands of years, use malt. Enzymes are available worldwide, contact Kerry Bio-sciences or Novozymes and they can point you in the right direction. Don't want to do that? Get some malted barley or sorghum. Trust me, I love innovation, and the many enzymes available to us fascinate me and I love to experiment with them. But we need to be concerned for the newbies that come on this public forum and see people using Rid-X or fertilizer in their booze. They may then take it to the next level and use something REALLY unsafe. This really concerns me.
I'm a professional brewer and distiller and have fermented over 50,000 gallons of beer using just the natural enzymes in malt. You can use malted barley or sorghum to convert corn mashes, it works great! Innovation is great, but remember that not everyone that reads these boards can easily differentiate between what is safe and what is not. Stick to food-grade ingredients and you'll make better, safer booze!
Can't/won't get food-grade enzymes off the internet?
But they are enzymes , the same enzymes that are found in Digestin, as Hawke discovered.
but remember that not everyone that reads these boards can easily differentiate between what is safe and what is not.
If they're reading this board, they should know what's safe and what isn't. If a newbie can't figure that out here, then probably he can't figure it out anywhere. It's the newbies that don't read this board that we should be concerned about, IMO. If they make it here, then they should be fine, all things being equal. Just my point of view, bd.
Big J, you've posted pretty much that same comment several times in this thread and have also been advised to stop by a site administrator... Enough is enough... If you have nothing to add other than the same opinion then stay out of the conversation, plain and simple... Bring some worthwhile information to the table if you'd like to participate further, such as providing proof that the enzymes in Rid-X aren't purchased from the same companies that provide those boxed as food grade enzymes...
Think about this for a moment... If people knew the chemicals used in processing white flour and sugar they might never eat them again and those of us who knowingly eat them are accepting of the chemical process... Many caustic chemicals and enzymes are used in the production of our everyday commercial foods which are supposedly extracted later on in the production process...
Let me say this... enzymes are produced by bacterial and fungal fermentations. Just like brewing wine or beer where the goal is to produce ethanol you also want to maintain aseptic conditions in such industrial fermentations because you want to produce enzymes, not a bunch of competing and possibly toxic bacteria.
Furthermore, if there were some bad bacterial bugs in Rid-x I can guarantee it would not be released to the public for use, another good reason to support the theory of aseptic fermentation practices by the manufacturer.
Malt is great for brewing. Trouble is not everyone has access to it or wants to pay for it... well actually cost isn't too bad its the shipping that kill ya. Almost the same with enzymes. Other than milehi, there is no other small quantity source for enzymes at a reasonable price in the USA that I am aware of. A pail of thermostable alpha amylase enzymes from novozymes weighs in at like 25kg, comes with a $300+ price tag, and has a shelf life of perhaps three months at room temps. Unfortunately I don't trust resellers pushing 4oz containers of supposedly thermostable enzymes... no tellings how long they been sitting on a shelf somewhere.
While I agree it is always good practice to look at various things and attempt to evaluate their physical properties and the potential consequences relating to their exposure, there is nothing to suggest that Rid-X is dangerous in any manner even though it is made to be flushed down the toilet... from the best I can tell, the biggest danger is your likely to get an irritated upper respiratory tract and possibly choked on the powder more than anything else. It is for all practical purposes (except for some genetic manipulation of the bacteria) a natural product... hell it could be kosher for all we know.
Has anyone ran a mash made with Rid-X yet ? Just wondering if it gives any off tastes for pot distillers.. I am sure it would be clean after refluxing, if one were so inclined.. Anyway, enquiring minds wanna know..
From what I understand food products in the US are legally required to list all ingredients on the package. Is there something similar for things like Rid-X? And even if there is, I wonder if there is an unlisted ingredient, that they may not be required to list, that could be harmful. Yes, maybe I'm a bit overcautious, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
, the same enzymes that are found in Digestin, as Hawke discovered.