enzyme power of different grains?

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therecipe
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enzyme power of different grains?

Post by therecipe »

i was wondering if anyone has a rough idea of what percent of malted grain needs to be in the mix to have enough enzymes to convert the remaining unmalted grain? i know different grains have different enzyme levels so how about for corn, rye and barley? id like to do those three in separate all grain runs to compair. ive heard malted rye dosent have the enzyme potency of say a malted wheat. so if you were doing an all rye im under the impression youd need to malt way more of the rye than if you were doing an all corn. im assuming you wouldnt need to malt as much corn. does any one the rough ratio of malted to unmalted for the various more popular grains?
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by rtalbigr »

One of the mentors here is a wiz at this stuff and I'm sure he'll be along sometime to give a specific answer. From my perspective, I pretty much just do grain mashes, 15-20% of your grain bill needs to be malts. 6-row barley has more enzymes and ya can probably get by with 10% with it. I have only used malted wheat once and used 15% and it did real well. I haven't got around to trying malted rye or corn yet.

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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by Bull Rider »

Where's Rubber Duck when you need him?

I think rtalbigr is correct, but this is above my pay grade...


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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by NcHooch »

I think a lot of recipes that use those 3 grains typically only use about 10% rye, 20% malted barley, and the rest corn, and I bet that would make a fine tastin drink.
They say most rye only has enough diastic power to convert itself, so you prolly want to keep the percentage of barley up in the 15-20% area to ensure good conversion of the corn (especially if you have any sorta problems in the mashing process). And like BigR said above, 6-row has more enzymes than 2-row (close to double actually) so you can factor that in as well.

Just remember tho', the point of mashing is to convert starch to fermentable sugar, ensure you have all the right ingredients in there to get the job done.

Hope that helps,
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by rubber duck »

Therecipe,

The answer to your question isn't quite as strait forward as barley, corn wheat, rye and what one has the most power.

You need a minimum of 30 litner per lb of grain to get a good moderately fast conversion assuming that you do everything right. Enzymatic power is measured in a term called litner, so when your buying malt that's what your looking for. More then 30 is better as it gives you room for error on your conversion temps.

So lets say you have a 10 lb grain bill and your using 2 row barley at 140 litner. You need 300 litner to do the job so your grain bill will be 2.25 lb of barley minimum and 7.75 lb of unmalted grain. More enzymes would be nice but you could do it on that.

Now you have alpha and beta enzymes in the grain different grain and different strains of grain will have difference ratios, don't worry about it though.

The same grain can have different amounts of enzymes depending on how it's malted, more enzymes = less starch.

So here's a basic guide. Corn is the lowest, depending on how you malt it you can do a 50/50 mix. 2 row barley can run anywhere from 80 to 160. 6 row barley is 180 plus, wheat can be very high but not always, Rye can be high as well really high I've seen papers that say well over 300 but I don't know for sure.

30% is a good rule of thumb if you don't know what you have, using to much is better the to little.
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by mash rookie »

The same grain can have different amounts of enzymes depending on how it's malted, more enzymes = less starch.

So here's a basic guide. Corn is the lowest, depending on how you malt it you can do a 50/50 mix. 2 row barley can run anywhere from 80 to 160. 6 row barley is 180 plus, wheat can be very high but not always, Rye can be high as well really high I've seen papers that say well over 300 but I don't know for sure.

30% is a good rule of thumb if you don't know what you have, using to much is better the to little.
HUH??
Damn RD, I love reading your posts because your explanations are usually to the point and easy to understand. This went over my head. 30%? Malt to grain ratio?
I got the 30 litner per pound of grain. Should we give a crap about that or just use a 30/70 ratio?

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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by Dnderhead »

i dont thank he meant to put the% in,he meant 30 litner.
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by Tater »

http://homedistiller.org/grain/yield/planning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by rubber duck »

mash rookie wrote:
The same grain can have different amounts of enzymes depending on how it's malted, more enzymes = less starch.

So here's a basic guide. Corn is the lowest, depending on how you malt it you can do a 50/50 mix. 2 row barley can run anywhere from 80 to 160. 6 row barley is 180 plus, wheat can be very high but not always, Rye can be high as well really high I've seen papers that say well over 300 but I don't know for sure.

30% is a good rule of thumb if you don't know what you have, using to much is better the to little.
HUH??
Damn RD, I love reading your posts because your explanations are usually to the point and easy to understand. This went over my head. 30%? Malt to grain ratio?
I got the 30 litner per pound of grain. Should we give a crap about that or just use a 30/70 ratio?

Mash Rookie
Sorry I was in hurry when I typed that out.

Ok so lets say you home malted some barley and you going to use it to convert corn but you don't really know how much enzymatic power you have. Your better off going heavier on the malt say a 30/70 malt barley to corn ratio, it may be over kill but if you don't know what your working with it's better to have more enzymes then you need then not enough. Also when your just starting out it's better to use more malted grain, it gives you room for error.
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by mash rookie »

Thanks RD for the explanation. Thanks Tater for the link. I have read those pages before but will print them for closer scrutiny.

I am still a few weeks away from trying my first mash. I guess you could say I am still a “Mash Virgin” instead of Mash Rookie. I am doing pretty good with UJSSM and have learned a lot.

I do have a starting plan. I have a big old cooler that was way too large for any practical purpose. My shop is a warm environment. I am planning on cooking in my still boiler after removing the boil chips and mashing in the cooler. It should be able to hold conversion temps for quite awhile. I may even build some kind of internal stirring device.

I have read the popular opinion of using some malt during cooking to keep it thin enough to work with.
Now that I understand the mash ratios better, I will be heading for a brew shop for malts soon. I will let you know how I do. (how bad I screw up)

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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by rubber duck »

When you go to the brew shop they're are going to have a long list of malts and some of them aren't well suited for distilling. I hear a lot of guys go into the brew shop for the first time and walk out with a bag of malt not suited to distilling, or the shop sells them liquid malt.

What you need to get is 2row or 6row pale, it's used as a base malt for beer. Don't ask to many questions about enzymatic power or they're going to figure out what your doing and you might not want that. Also the brew shop will grind the grain for you but they grind if coarse for use in beer, so you might want to crush it a little more with a rolling pin.

I'll try to find some time this this weekend to post up a few tips for your fist mash.
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by shadylane »

Resurrecting old posts for the educational value :lol:
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by still_stirrin »

shadylane wrote:Resurrecting old posts for the educational value :lol:
Thanks Shady.

This is a good one, especially for the novices who think they’re ready for all grain mashing yet haven’t figured out how to use the HDGogle search.
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by Swedish Pride »

still_stirrin wrote:
shadylane wrote:Resurrecting old posts for the educational value :lol:
Thanks Shady.

This is a good one, especially for the novices who think they’re ready for all grain mashing yet haven’t figured out how to use the HDGogle search.
ss

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If a poor sod needs spoon feeding help take the leap to AG I say, open wide here comes the AG airplane.
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Re: enzyme power of different grains?

Post by TDick »

still_stirrin wrote:
shadylane wrote:Resurrecting old posts for the educational value :lol:
Thanks Shady.

This is a good one, especially for the novices who think they’re ready for all grain mashing yet haven’t figured out how to use the HDGogle search.
ss
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I keep posting this when a question pops up from a Noob newer than me.
I'm probably going to get a message from a Hall Monitor telling me to knock it off.

The simple answer to most questions like this IMO is study Tried & True.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=14

My own situation was trying Jimbos Wheated Bourbon/Gumball.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=39617
It just made sense to me if you're doing an AG, regardless of the mash bill, double up on your wash production with no real extra effort.

When I did it, I malted my own wheat and barley and I have no idea how successful the malting was.

So I borrowed a bit from Pintoshine.

I just added Alpha Amalyse and cracked corn to room temp water in a 5 gallon pot and stirred with paint stirrer until it got up to 190 F.
Poured it into my cooler/tun and then added another 5 gallons of 190 F water. Wasn't very thick at all.
Let it cool to 155 F, added barley, then stirred a few minutes to cool just a bit and added the wheat.
I forgot to check ph and since I used cracked corn I couldn't/didnt pull an SG/OG
Shut it up for 7 days as per Jimbo.
It sure smelled good!
Jimbos Mash.jpg
:wtf:
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