Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Yeasts

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TDS
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Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Yeasts

Post by TDS »

Hi all, hope you're well!

I would like to share with you something I have been experimenting with
and making booze with for about a year or so now.

Now I know this gets confusing, but for the record,

* All Molds are Fungi, but not all Fungi are Molds.

* All Yeasts are Fungi but not all Yeasts are Molds.

* Some Organisms are all three, Yeasts, Fungi, and Molds.

And THAT is what this post is all about. 2 Organisms in particular.

Aspergillus Oryzae and Monascus Purpureas.

You have probably heard of Apergillus Oryzae, or Kojii. It is used in the production of Sake.

You may not have heard of Monascus Purpureas, or Beni-Kojii, Red Kojii. It was also used to produce a type of Sake, Akaisake or
Angak. Beni-Kojii was used in southern asian regions because of it's higher tolerance for heat. And it produces lovastatin, a cholesterol lowering drug.

What's amazing about these little buggers is that either one, all by itself,
can handle seamlessly the conversions we all love...
From Starch to Sugar, and then, from Sugar to Ethanol.

All by themselves, all in one step.

No added other yeasts. No added enzymes.

They produce Amylase enzymes to convert the starches, then they feed on the sugars produced
and make ethanol. :thumbup:

These are the Asian Amylase producing Molds, Fungi, Yeasts. They are adapted to live on Rice.
The Asian cultures have been making booze and getting drunk for thousands of years,
using just a little cooked rice and one or both of these.


Now you might be thinking, Kojii kin, that stuff is expensive!
I assure you, only us western cultures experience this, and only because we lack the
knowledge of traditional asian booze making. Asians living in the US have no trouble locating
these things for short money.

The Chinese make a thing called a "Qhu". Here is a cut and paste from wiki that explains it a little bit.
for our purposes we won't be discussing Rhizopus or Mucor fermentation, although both of these are also endlessly fascinating...
The Qhu or qui is made by exposing damp flour paste to airborne yeasts, then forming it into balls and drying it.
Of course, this is imprecise. Some batches may have yellow aspergillus as the dominant mold, if your batch turns yellow it's OK!

From wiki:

Xiaoqu

Xiaoqu or "small starter" (Chinese: 小麴, 小曲; pinyin: xiǎo qū) is rice that had been cultured predominantly by molds of the Rhizopus (Chinese: 小麴菌, pinyin: xiǎo qū jùn or 根霉菌, pinyin: gēn meí jùn) and Mucor (Chinese: 毛霉菌, pinyin: maó meí jùn) genus, as well as yeast and other bacteria. The mixture generates less heat, so they are mostly used in the tropical South of China.

Daqu

Daqu or "large starter" (Chinese: 大麴, 大曲; pinyin: dà qū, or 麥麴, 麦曲; pinyin: maì qū) is wheat that had been cultured predominantly by Aspergillus oryzae (Chinese: 麴菌, 麴霉菌, 曲霉菌, pinyin: qū meí jùn, Japanese: 麹菌, koji-kin), other molds, yeast, and bacteria. Almost all famous alcoholic drinks in China use this starter. Drinks made from a small starter is usually finished using large starters for flavor.

Hongqu

Hongqu or "red starter" (Chinese: 紅麴, 红曲; pinyin: hóng qū) is rice that had been cultured with yeast and Monascus purpureus (Chinese: 紅曲菌, pinyin: hóng qū jùn) or other red rice molds of the Monascus genus. This starter gives the drink a purple red colour and is used to give drinks a unique colour and flavour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiuqu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Interesting sidenote, Resveratrol can be produced from its glucoside piceid through the process of fermentation by A. oryzae.
Is there anything they CAN'T do?

Any asian supermarket will have the ingredients discussed here, and for very little money.
A bag of Red Yeast Rice costs me about 5 dollars for 2 lbs, and a 4oz/113g bag of qhu or yeast balls is 2.25 USD.
For under 8 dollars you can go all year, they can be reused like traditional trub.
Here is a picture of what you should look for:
20130602_131404 (500x375).jpg
Although either of these can be used alone, and although I have produced booze using both of them by themselves,
I usually use both together. It just tastes better to me. Also, monascus alone takes a lot longer than aspergillus alone to ferment.
Using both is faster and tastier. I'm sure a biologist could tell you why, but I only know that's how it works for me.
Together they create a rice wine that you would swear tastes like it was made from fruit.
This rice wine can be drunk straight from your bucket, and it tastes so good it's hard to save any for a run!
I usually get about 16% :shock:

Here is my basic recipe for the red rice wine/wash :

1 - Cook some rice, let it cool

2 - Add the qhu and the red yeast rice

3 - Cover, airlock, wait 21 days

4 - Strain off the liquid. Run, or.... Drink!
:twisted:

It's really that simple.

The qhu and the ryr are just like any other yeasts, use as much or as little as you choose.
They will propogate.

Some things I find helpful:
- Cook the rice in a ratio of 1:2 rice to water.
- Crush the qhu into a powder, I use a Ziploc bag and smash it with the round side of a ladle
- Soak the ryr and the qhu in some warm water for a few minutes before you mix it in

So that's it. Hope you like it!

I am currently trying to get these critters to work their amylase magic on corn,
but that's a thread for another day....
Someday I will present to the world "The Red Corn Whiskey of Awesomeness"...
Hopefully.

Meanwhile, enjoy some Asian Flavors!

And here are some pics. I know we all love pics!
20130602_132414 (500x375).jpg
20130622_172237 (500x375).jpg
20130330_212512 (500x375).jpg
20130331_190600 (500x375).jpg
"You know, you can just buy that stuff right up the road" he said.
I just smiled, and said quietly, "No you can't".
TDS
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by TDS »

Just a few more things...

A shorter grain rice ferments more quickly due to shorter carbohydrate chains. However, almost any rice will work.

Don't use brown rice, as the organisms have trouble penetrating the husk to get to the rice.

Beware Bottle Bombs! Sometimes it continues to ferment past 16%, and even the fridge won't always stop it.

Sediment can be a problem. I like to drink it plain, sediment and all. It gives it a nice mouthfeel.
If you're running it, let it settle, then rack off it as much as you can. A little won't hurt as long as you
heat up slow and don't scorch it.

More pics!
:twisted:
20130326_043921 (500x375).jpg
20130326_031808 (500x375) (2).jpg
20130330_214451 (500x375).jpg
20130330_213022 (500x375).jpg
20130330_223339 (500x375).jpg
"You know, you can just buy that stuff right up the road" he said.
I just smiled, and said quietly, "No you can't".
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by DAD300 »

I've used all the above and my efforts have produced nice drink(s). THE WINE IS GOOD AND THE VODKA IS GREAT!

My problem is the separation of solids and liquids in order to distill. My bad! Too impatient...

I have had success in using brown rice, by malting it! in 5-7 days it will sprout, provide some enzymes and bust the hull.

Good post...
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by MitchyBourbon »

TDS,

Fantastic post! I have been distilling since 1982. I am fascinated with yeast. I used to have an office in my home but some years back I converted it to a higher purpose. Now it's a modest lab. I am quite familiar with Asian grocery stores as my wife is from India. I am going to get some of these yeast and see what kind of bourbon they make.
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by Cu29 »

I don't know why but I love the red wine from white rice. Once I fill my barrel full of bourbon I'm going to get this going. Very interesting.
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by Theo »

That is too simple to work! I wonder if my local Asian grocery is still open........ :thumbup:
Still happy, Still learning, Still reading
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by TDS »

Thanks guys!

It's nice to be able to contribute something after take take taking
so much of your knowledge and experience!

If anyone wants to read about my adventures at the asian markets,
check out my welcome thread, I still drunk spam it sometimes...
Lots of pics too, once I got like 15 kinds of sugar there.
Pages 5 and 9 I think.



http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 27&t=40483
"You know, you can just buy that stuff right up the road" he said.
I just smiled, and said quietly, "No you can't".
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by just sayin »

Thanks much! TDS. Totally fascinating! You are pushing our knowledge frontier forward. Red wine from white rice, amazing!

This type of post is why I continue spending so much time studying and taking notes here and on several other forums. Your "nugget" is a keeper. We are in your debt.

Just Sayin'
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by TDS »

I has a rice cooker! :P

Actually, 2, now...

It works like a toaster, you push the button down then go drink and play video games,
it won't burn if you forget for a while :D

Here's my old one, a Black and Decker, cost like 17 bucks
1.5 cups rice max, 3 cups water and it swells up and lifts the lid.
Keeping it to do rice for dinner!
20130927_081645 (500x375).jpg
Here is my new one... 10 cups! :thumbup: It's bigger and better,
cost 130$ USD at Hmart, the online Korean Superstore!
If you're on a budget, get a small one, just keep dumping it
in your bucket and reloading. Or cook the rice in your mash pot,
it's all good.
20130927_081752 (500x375).jpg
20130927_081803 (500x375).jpg
I like to rinse the rice in a colander with the spray hose at the kitchen sink,
but it's not a huge deal.
:twisted:
"You know, you can just buy that stuff right up the road" he said.
I just smiled, and said quietly, "No you can't".
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by TDS »

Corn Epic Fail Pic!
:twisted:
Attachments
20130412_182917 (500x375) (2).jpg
"You know, you can just buy that stuff right up the road" he said.
I just smiled, and said quietly, "No you can't".
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by sweeps »

Excellent information!

I've made sticky rice wine quite a few times using ragi tape, which is an Indonesian starter containing Aspergillus oryzae and possibly some other things. The commonest brand is Rotary:

http://www.buyasianfoods.com/products/ragi-manis-(rice-yeast-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)hypen-3_dot_5oz.html

It seems to be out of stock everywhere, but I bought a good supply a while back. Do you know if this stuff has an expiry date?
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by sweeps »

That link didn't come out properly, but here is the same stuff on Amazon, but also out of stock:

http://www.amazon.com/Rotary-Rice-Yeast ... B004OUVEZ2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by TDS »

The oldest I ever used was about a year...
Looks like the same stuff.
Depending where you live, the stuff is cheap though.
I know a guy from homebrew forums is selling it on ebag.
"You know, you can just buy that stuff right up the road" he said.
I just smiled, and said quietly, "No you can't".
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by sweeps »

Thanks. The Indonesian version is sort of a flattened disk, rather than spherical. The stuff I have is more than a year old, although I did do a batch of wine with it towards the end of last year and it came out fine. Maybe I should do a small batch of wine and if it works OK, start doing some bigger batches. Maybe if I make enough of it, I'll be able to run some of it, instead of drinking it all as wine. It's kind of tough to resist, though...

There are no Asian food stores within convenient driving distance of where I am. I did find a couple of online sellers who have the Chinese stuff, but they kind of bump the price up a little. It's kind of surprising it's so hard to buy online, given how many blogs there are that show how to brew with the stuff.
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by TDS »

I shipped some to F6Hawk...

Stuff cost like 7$,
Shipping was 13! :shock:

Maybe it can be sent cheaper, but I lack
shipping experience, I don't know.
"You know, you can just buy that stuff right up the road" he said.
I just smiled, and said quietly, "No you can't".
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by NateTG »

sweeps wrote:...Do you know if this stuff has an expiry date?
Dry mold spores should keep indefinitely, live yeast cultures less so. You can probably culture your own spores with a process something like this:
http://www.taylor-madeak.org/index.php/ ... ake?page=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Wikipedia suggests that wild ragi tape is also an option:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapai" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by sweeps »

TDS - asiansupermarket365.com carry both the yeast balls (8oz for $7.39 - a little more than you're paying) and the red yeast rice (12oz for $3.29 - a lot more expensive). Add in the shipping and the overall price doubles. It's probably still cheaper than the gas to drive to the nearest Chinatown from here, I suppose...

NateTG - thanks for the link to the sake site. Looks like some really good info there.
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by francis »

Great post. I've made a few batches with the Chinese Rice Wine starter balls ( can be found in Chinatown or on eBay ).

But now I want to make my own starter balls from ambient molds and yeasts. Can anyone tell me how to do it ?

I also found a Canadian manufacturer for the rice wine balls: http://www.ontoyeast.ca/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by DAD300 »

Aspergillus niger is the black mold found on onions...or you can buy a commercial concentrate from pintoshine enzymes.

http://www.enzymash.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by MDH »

You can buy unpasteurized creamy sake and make a starter from it.
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by MitchyBourbon »

I foresee a new project in my future.
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by TDS »

I have had some success with nixtamilized corn products. Don't use masa, the sludge is a killer.
"You know, you can just buy that stuff right up the road" he said.
I just smiled, and said quietly, "No you can't".
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by humbledore »

TDS can you elaborate more on the nixtamalized corn, what worked, what didn't?
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by ranger_ric »

TDS,
I am ALSO very interested in the "Rest Of the Story" on nixtamalized corn,
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by Bagasso »

This is just a stab in the dark but corn is nixtamalized using an alkali so maybe, if the ph was not checked and adjusted, the pH was too high.
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Ye

Post by francis »

I'm trying Courtland apples with the rice wine starter, not pressed or anything, just cut up into chunks. It smells great. The easiest cider to make ever. The apple chunks are going rubbery.
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Yeasts

Post by Yodaspike »

So i read and searched arround, but i seem not to be able to find a constant rice to water ratio, ie after you boiled the rice, how much water to 1kg rice, got everything ells.
Seems pretty straight forward, but if you are not adding any sugar? Or should you?
So 1. Mash rice to water ratio and 2. Add sugar or not?

Thx
Pretty excited trying my first sake batch
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Yeasts

Post by contrahead »

I'm leaving a comment here so that I can backtrack to this thread if I need to. Think I might still have some Chinese yeast balls laying around that are at least as old as this thread. I bought them hoping to find a fungus mold for sake, myself. I would bet that some of that Aspergillus Oryzae (if that is what they really contained) can still be revived.
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Yeasts

Post by Yodaspike »

Should be ok, but found that worse case you can use grated ginger, does the same thing, will see what happens to mine, boiled rice, added water, red yeast rice and the cake yeast, little of both so time will tell.
Added some of the yeast to a sugar mash and it sounds like some one having big old farts the whole time
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Re: Monascus and Aspergillus, Beni Koji and Koji... Asian Yeasts

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Koji is a whole new rabbit hole if you want to run down it.
Great for enzymes, but also a magical food transformer.

The spores can be sourced here: http://gemcultures.com/soy_cultures.htm
Their website is a holdover from 1982, looks like it was programmed on a TRS-80 computer, but they are great people and bring you the best product from safe reliable producers. You want the Amazake "light" starter.

To bone up on the world of Koji, get this book: http://kojialchemy.com/
It is super up to date, full of info, and written by a couple of passionate adventurers!

These two things will take you waaaaay past rice balls.

If you want more:
Additional inspiration: https://www.cooksillustrated.com/scienc ... ature/koji
Great Whiskey story: https://pre-prowhiskeymen.blogspot.com/ ... iskey.html
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