Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by CFP61670 »

https://enzymash.biz/download/sebamylgl.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

https://enzymash.biz/download/sebstarhtl.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by pope »

So if the sebstar htl is already breaking down all of the starch to sugar, is the sebflo tl used to break down beta glucans merely to make the mash thinner? Or is it to be used prior to the sebstar before the mash is brought to amylase temps? I haven't used sebstar htl yet but am going to, but I have used high temp AA and the resultant mash is thin enough I don't see the need to thin it further, even mashes of unmalted wheat and rye.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by still_stirrin »

SEBamyl-GL is an enzyme produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Aspergillus niger. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher, non-synthetic and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBamyl-GL is considered an exo-alpha-amylase, glucoamylase or amyloglucosidase enzyme. It acts to hydrolyze the alpha-D-1,4-glycosidic bonds on the non-reducing end of liquefied starch. In addition, SEBamy-GL has side alpha-D-1,6 glycosidic activity to increase hydrolysis of starch and amylopectin branch points. The prolonged action of SEBamyl-GL produces large amounts of glucose.

SEBstar HTL is a heat-stable, liquid alpha-amylase enzyme. It is produced by controlled fermentation of a non-GMO strain of Bacillus licheniformis. This enzyme is food-grade, Kosher Certified and can be used to produce certified-organic beverages. SEBstar HTL is an endo-amylase that randomly hydrolyzes alpha- 1,4-glycosidic bonds in gelatinized starch. The prolonged action of SEBstar HTL rapidly reduces the viscosity of gelatinized starch and produces large amounts of lower molecular weight dextrins.

SEBflo-TL is a liquid enzyme preparation produced by fermentation of a selected, non-GMO strain of Trichoderma reesei. This enzyme is a food-grade, Kosher certified, non-synthetic and organic certifiable product. SEBflo-TL is an endo-glucanase enzyme, which catalyzes the breakdown of beta-glucans from barley, malt, cereal grains, gummy fruit like olives as well as other plant materials. SEBflo-TL catalyzes the breakdown of beta-glucans (1,4-beta-,1,3-beta-glucans) to simple sugars. It promotes liquefaction, reduces viscosity, and improves solid/liquid separation, lautering and filtration. SEBflo-TL is essentially free of protease activity.

Taken from the SebStar website...doh!

SEBflo is very useful if mashing rye and to some degree, wheat. Otherwise, you won't really use it often. SEBstar HTL is "priceless" when you're working with corn. But watch the temperatures and pH requirements for all the enzymes. But, SEBamyl is what will give you terminal gravities at 1.000, or below. It's the "finisher" in the starch to sugar conversion process.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by pope »

Gah! I perused the enzymash site, obviously I didn't read closely enough. Sounds like about what I expected though. Would the breakdown of beta glucans help after fermentation for rye and wheat, too? Or would the difference be nil by the time the yeast has done its damage?
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by still_stirrin »

pope wrote:Gah! I perused the enzymash site, obviously I didn't read closely enough. Sounds like about what I expected though. Would the breakdown of beta glucans help after fermentation for rye and wheat, too? Or would the difference be nil by the time the yeast has done its damage?
How much all grain brewing have you actually done?

Beta glucans are the "glue" in rye and to a lessor degree, oats and wheat. You reduce them first in your mash profile. So, I would mash rye initially separately, with temperatures rising up from the bottom. The glucan temperature rest is best between 98*-113*F. If you mash the rye (oats and/or wheat) separately, you can step the temperature within this range and add these enzymes, or let them form by themselves (requires a 20-30 minute rest). Then step up to your beta amylase rest at 140*-148*F and add your barley malt.

All the while, boil the corn for an hour and let it cool to 185*F and add the HTL enzymes.

Working the mashes separately (bottom up & top down) you can combine the two with a saccarification rest temperature of 145*-150*F and wait until converted.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by pope »

I've probably done sixty or more all grain batches over the last ten years, probably half of that was beer for kegging (many a cherished ESB recipe). I know about the glucan rest as it pertains to beer brewing, I've done a few step mashes for European pilsners using the decoction method. Then though, it was a protein rest for clarity, not a glucan rest for viscocity (even though the temps overlap). But looking at these enzymes from a distilling perspective, particularly from my mash routine where I start high with boiling water and unmodified grains, I was trying to understand if there was a benefit to hitting that rest with added enzymes on the way down in temperature.

Using two pots to cook different grains separately is a pretty wild idea (to me at least), it makes a lot of sense. And the use of sebflo tl makes a lot more sense in that application. But with sebstar/high temp aa I'm getting such a complete conversion, I'm actually considering ignoring the enzymes in malt and just cooking the malts with the corn, thus denaturing the enzyme in the malt, and just using those malts for the flavor they provide, converting them instead with sebstar. Is that crazy? It just seems easier to me.

Also, I stopped boiling my corn about seven mashes back and I didn't notice any difference in my conversion rates. I just add it to boiling water, stir a few times, insulate, and walk away. I suppose boiling would kill off baddies and hydrate the grain quicker, but given enough time the grain seems to hydrate well.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by still_stirrin »

pope wrote:...I know about the glucan rest as it pertains to beer brewing, I've done a few step mashes for European pilsners using the decoction method. Then though, it was a protein rest for clarity, not a glucan rest for viscocity (even though the temps overlap).
The glucan rest pertains to those cereal grains which have high beta glucans in them, e.g. - rye malt. Reducing the glucans will improve the lautering process, if you sparge your grains. Also, those long carbohydrates will convert to sugars if they are reduced. But simply jumping to a saccarification step won't reduce them.
pope wrote:...But looking at these enzymes from a distilling perspective, particularly from my mash routine where I start high with boiling water and unmodified grains, I was trying to understand if there was a benefit to hitting that rest with added enzymes on the way down in temperature.
It just so happens that you come "top down" when mashing corn, because corn needs to be gelatinized before the starches are available for conversion to sugars. Malting corn would do this for you as well, if you truly malted your corn. The germination process converts the long-chain carbohydrates to starches, making them available to the enzymes to convert to sugars.
pope wrote:...Using two pots to cook different grains separately is a pretty wild idea (to me at least), it makes a lot of sense. And the use of sebflo tl makes a lot more sense in that application.
Again, the SEBflo enzyme is used for the beta-glucan reduction, not saccarification. So, you don't need it to convert the starches to sugars. That's done with the amylase enzymes.

I do use two mash vessels when mashing with corn. I usually start with the corn mash on one day, boiling to gelatinize the corn meal, and then cooling to 180*F and adding the HTL, covering and let set overnight. I stir the mash constantly for the first 30-45 minutes and then for 5 minutes every 15-20 minutes until I go to bed a few hours after starting the mash.

The next morning, I start the barley (and oats or wheat) mash in another mash tun, stepping up to my saccarification temperature (148*F). When there, I blend the two mash tuns together and cover an let stand until converted (often 2 hours, or so). Usually, the temperature drifts down to 135*-140*F during this time.

Then, I transfer the mash to the lauter tun, to begin recirculation. I recirculate the mash for 30 minutes before starting the runoff to the fermenter (I don't boil the wort anymore for a whisky ferment). I sparge the mash with hot water (<170*F). The runoff is usually quite clear by the time I finish. Just oxygenate the wort and pitch the yeast.
pope wrote:...I'm actually considering ignoring the enzymes in malt and just cooking the malts with the corn, thus denaturing the enzyme in the malt, and just using those malts for the flavor they provide, converting them instead with sebstar. Is that crazy? It just seems easier to me.
I think that much of the flavor character is produced during the natural conversion process. Big barley malt flavor is enhanced with the malt itself.

Plus, if you boil the grains, including the husks, you will get the effects from the husk in your mash. Boiling grain husks leaches the tannins in the husk. In a beer, this is quite detrimental. Even loitering with too hot of sparge water will wash through the tannins. And since you're really making a "distiller's" beer, why not avoid the potential for off flavors in your mash?
pope wrote:...I stopped boiling my corn about seven mashes back and I didn't notice any difference in my conversion rates. I just add it to boiling water, stir a few times, insulate, and walk away. I suppose boiling would kill off baddies and hydrate the grain quicker, but given enough time the grain seems to hydrate well.
As stated previously, the purpose for boiling corn is to gelatinize the meal. It is NOT for the purpose of sterilization. As for the difference in your conversion rates, I assume that your extract efficiency went down somewhat. I would expect this simply because without thorough gelatinization of the corn meal, the conversion process would be limited. Of course, longer mash durations would help this shortfall, and indeed may be the reason why you haven't noticed any appreciable reduction in the OG.

Liquid enzymes help you with these processes, at least they help speed your mash day. Definitely, the HTL helps when processing corn, so I do recommend it. Otherwise, your brewing processes can provide you with the enzymes for starch to sugar conversion if you pay attention to the times and temperatures (and pH) needed.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by pope »

The point about tannins is a good call, that does spark a vague recollection. I have a habit of forgetting information when it doesn't relate to a task (like not boiling husks due to tannins - with beer brewing this was never an issue for me). I've never used more than 10% rye so high quantities of glucan were never an issue, but this all makes sense.

As far as gelatinization, I've always referenced this chart - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=16799 - which has gelatinizing from just under 145F to just over 170F. In my experience boiling has certainly helped hydrate the corn more quickly, but I've left it to rest at high temp for hours to gelatinize on its own. (As an aside, this topic includes a reference to high temps and tannins, go figure).
still_stirrin wrote:Then, I transfer the mash to the lauter tun, to begin recirculation.
This blows my mind. You're able to recirculate and sparge off of a bourbon recipe without the grain bed collapsing? Clear, clean bourbon wash sounds like some kind of fantasy.

Loving this conversation, thanks for all the info and perspective.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by der wo »

For a distillers rye mash I would use the SEBflo at the end of mashing. Directly after the SEBamyl.
Here a pdf about similar products to SEB from Germany. VF-Kartoffel is SEBstarHTL, VZ is SEBamyl, ex-Tosan is SEBflo:
http://www.c-schliessmann.de/englisch/D ... ie/003.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Anyway, if you can heat up and stir your mash automatically, I would mash in at a low temp and would begin with a glucane rest with the glucane enzyme. In addition to the glucane enzyme after the glucoamylase.
The SEBflo doesn't help much fermenting and distilling on the grain. Rye is still difficult. Perhaps it helps lautering, I don't know.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by pope »

I've got my hands full in the workshop but once I finish off a few things I'll pick up the sebflo, rye, and a new whiskey yeast so I can try it out first hand.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

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der wo wrote:For a distillers rye mash I would use the SEBflo at the end of mashing. Directly after the SEBamyl.
Here a pdf about similar products to SEB from Germany. VF-Kartoffel is SEBstarHTL, VZ is SEBamyl, ex-Tosan is SEBflo:
http://www.c-schliessmann.de/englisch/D ... ie/003.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Anyway, if you can heat up and stir your mash automatically, I would mash in at a low temp and would begin with a glucane rest with the glucane enzyme. In addition to the glucane enzyme after the glucoamylase.
The SEBflo doesn't help much fermenting and distilling on the grain. Rye is still difficult. Perhaps it helps lautering, I don't know.
so i have bee doing a bunch of 100% rye lately, i have been cooking the rye from warm water and heating up. at 110* adding sebflo and then at 165* adding 1/2 dose hi temp, and then 3/4 dose of hi temp at 190 on the way down from 200. it has been working awesome, staying very fluid. (GL: at148* on the way down)

today, i thought i'd try sebflo on the way down. This was a mistake.i added the rye to 150* water and kept cooking to 200. i had to stop adding grain at 250g/l it would not stir in any more. (have been doing 280g/l with the first method, with room for more)
burned up my air stirrer. then overheat5ed the 1/2 inch drill trying to stir in HT at 190*
down to 165* now and starting to loosen up, but i can see this this being a slimey mess.

i'll post on whether the sebflow loosens the glucans tomorrow. GL going in, in an hour or so... and then i'll leave it overnight. usually will be at 120* in the morning so should be prime for sebflo then.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by der wo »

I am not sure I undestand everything right. But perhaps the difference is the mash in temperature? Yesterday you mashed in at 150 F instead of "warm water". That makes a difference for sure. To stir in the rye at 150 is much more difficult than in "warm water".
Did you add some high temp alpha at the way up yesterday too? If not, this is the main reason for the problems probably.
HDNB wrote:at 110* adding sebflo and then at 165* adding 1/2 dose hi temp
Why not adding the hi temp alpha as early as possible? Before the rye? Water at 120 F, SEBflo and high temp alpha, and then the rye. The high temp alpha may work slow at 120F, but will not get destroyed by this low temp or the neutral pH. The enzymes are spread perfectly this way. It will loosen up the mash immediately.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by shadylane »

:wave: I'm watch this post for info
Kind'a makes me feel like a voyeur :lol:
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by pope »

I have eight different kinds of hooch going right now and this thread has me really tempted to order in some rye for a ninth. Obviously I'm not good at caving to my curiosity.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

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der wo wrote:I am not sure I undestand everything right. But perhaps the difference is the mash in temperature? Yesterday you mashed in at 150 F instead of "warm water". That makes a difference for sure. To stir in the rye at 150 is much more difficult than in "warm water".
Did you add some high temp alpha at the way up yesterday too? If not, this is the main reason for the problems probably.
HDNB wrote:at 110* adding sebflo and then at 165* adding 1/2 dose hi temp
Why not adding the hi temp alpha as early as possible? Before the rye? Water at 120 F, SEBflo and high temp alpha, and then the rye. The high temp alpha may work slow at 120F, but will not get destroyed by this low temp or the neutral pH. The enzymes are spread perfectly this way. It will loosen up the mash immediately.
I don't add the HTL until i get the grain cooking to lower the PH. my water is 7.0 and HTL starts to denature at 6.5, so i like to get the grain going first.

yes i did add the HTL on the way up, it was still too thick. actually put in a extra 25% of a dose. (didn't help) usually only do a partial dose on the way up to help loosen things. i'm thinking with the steam jacket on, any enzymes that hit the water close to that jacket are going to get cooked. so i like to get hot, shut the steam off then put in the balance of the dose.

after (GL and) the overnight rest it was pretty loose this AM. I added the sebflo and gave it 2 hours. definitely loosened it up more.

and you are right Der, adding rye to hot water was dumb idea. it was mostly how my day worked out...i had time to put the water on and then i had another job for a while, and came back to hot water... one nice thing though, rye has been baking onto the steam jacket a bit when going from cold water with grain...starting with hot water the steam jacket was clean when i moved the mash over to fermenter today, it was nice not to have to clean it!

got a great conversion too, hit 1061
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by der wo »

HDNB wrote:I don't add the HTL until i get the grain cooking to lower the PH. my water is 7.0 and HTL starts to denature at 6.5, so i like to get the grain going first.
PH 7 is outside the optimal range, but it does not get denatured.
From the pdf:
"the optimum pH pH 5.6 – 6.5."
"Temperature inactivation begins to occur at or above 95oC and pH 6.5. SEBstar HTL can be completely inactivated in 5 minutes at pH 4.0 and 95oC."
It's about temperature inactivation, not pH inactivation. But the pH affects the temperature resistance, at 4.0 and 95°C it denatures faster than at 6.5 and 95°C.

You could try it once to add the enzyme before the grain. If it works for you like it works for me, it's a bit easier. If it doesn't work you can always use more enzymes later.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by coppercreature »

OK, slight change of direction, but I think I have the knowledge-base I need in this thread. Thinking of doing a rice mash with 6-row for conversion, with a RIMS system. Looking at a 10 gallon batch, 6lbs 6-row, 19lbs rice. Thinking of boiling the rice for about 20 minutes in about 8 gallons water (should have about 2 gallons extra fluid after 6ish is absorbed.) Then, drain off the excess fluid into the mash tun, and wait till it's at strike temperature (160ish) to add the 6-row malt. Should settle at about 150. Once the grain bed is established and recirculation is steady, I'd shovel in the rice on top of the grain bed, top up with water to the proper consistency, and continue mashing at about 150 for a couple hours. I'm hoping this is practical, but transferring 86lbs of rice/water at near boiling temps might be a bitch. Local wholesale place has 20lb packs of parboiled rice pretty cheap. Is this considered already gelatinized, and could it go straight onto the grain bed in the mash tun, with needed water for flow, and get the same results? Or, pre-packaged enzymes, and save the mashing hassle?
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by Sunshineer »

So is pinto still in business after the arrest or has he stopped selling? Does anyone know.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by Twisted Brick »

A couple of HD'rs have recently reported receiving enzymes from him, and his website is still up so I think he's still up and running. Which reminds me I have to put in an order myself.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by Sunshineer »

Thank you for your fast response. Happy stillin
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by Adem85 »

Hi all (first wash ever) I made a corn/rice wash last night and used amylase enzymes but when I did the iodine test it’s saying it’s still got starch so I got more coming tomorrow but I put the yeast in should I put more in when it comes?? Or it won’t do anything
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by HDNB »

Adem85 wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:43 pm Hi all (first wash ever) I made a corn/rice wash last night and used amylase enzymes but when I did the iodine test it’s saying it’s still got starch so I got more coming tomorrow but I put the yeast in should I put more in when it comes?? Or it won’t do anything
stillstirrin answered this in your other post. you would need to supply a lot more information on temperatures for dough in and mashin and Ph at different stages to start to answer this but really, refer to the tried and true recipes and find something easy to learn on while you read about all the stuff you need to read up on to successfully do AG mashes.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by Tennessee_Spirits »

I love this stuff, particular SEBStar Htl for its temperature tolerance. It allows me to mash corn at 185 (approved to 195) with controlled viscosity. Corn starch is challenging at home. At 160 F or below I got extremely poor gelatinization and low yields. But all is not roses, my yield is still no better than 60% and it is taking 3 hours to get peak SG. But corn is cheap and I just use more. Considering a batch with flaked corn but put off by cost. What is the solution?
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by Swedish Pride »

crack it to grits size, still whilst mashing
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by 80+proof »

moosemilk wrote: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:14 pm Where is a good reputable source for these enzymes in Canada? Appreciate any info. I am sure I could find many, but to find one that has a good track record is a crap shoot.
Did you ever find a good source in Canada? I am having the same problem
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by Bradster68 »

80+proof wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:13 am
moosemilk wrote: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:14 pm Where is a good reputable source for these enzymes in Canada? Appreciate any info. I am sure I could find many, but to find one that has a good track record is a crap shoot.
Did you ever find a good source in Canada? I am having the same problem
Not sure where you guys are at but. Prairie brew supplies has lots of enzymes. Liquid at that the htl and gluco.
I have them shipped to Ontario no problems
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by 80+proof »

Thanks I will check them out
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by werkkrew »

I read on the spec sheet that it says something along the lines of "if stored below 5C the enzymes will lose 5-10% effectiveness after one year"

Anecdotally, I have had the same two bottles for over three years in my fridge and they still work fine. I always overdose a bit so I can't say for sure if I've noticed a drop in potency.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by PLAYMP »

werkkrew wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:29 pm I read on the spec sheet that it says something along the lines of "if stored below 5C the enzymes will lose 5-10% effectiveness after one year"

Anecdotally, I have had the same two bottles for over three years in my fridge and they still work fine. I always overdose a bit so I can't say for sure if I've noticed a drop in potency.
werkkrew wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:29 pm I read on the spec sheet that it says something along the lines of "if stored below 5C the enzymes will lose 5-10% effectiveness after one year"

Anecdotally, I have had the same two bottles for over three years in my fridge and they still work fine. I always overdose a bit so I can't say for sure if I've noticed a drop in potency.
I have noticed what I think to be a degradation for sure although it’s hard to tell exactly certainly. Did an all corn over 24 hours recently using a PID and regularly checking ph to dial in everything the whole way to what the spec sheets would describe as optimal. Corn was ground to a coarse flour and I slightly overdosed the enzymes as well and couldn’t get the iodine test to pass.

Still ended up with 1.06sg which is totally fine but the enzymes I have were from the seller on eBay who sells them and there’s no dates on them or anything, they could be years old and stored in sub-optimal conditions over that time for all I know.
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Re: Enzymes sebstar- sebamyl

Post by Mr_Beer »

A little off topic...

I developed an EXCEL spreadsheet to determine how much of each enzyme to add based on pounds of grain (not tons) and the output is in teaspoons and tablespoons.

Those measures are better for most in America.

viewtopic.php?t=90892

PM me if you want a copy
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