8% ABV in 6 hours

[der wo]

1) Do a stripping run, don't add the heads, strip till most alcohol is gone (so most tails is in)
2) Treat result with base (bicarb, etc) and let it rest for some time.
3) Do another run this time making sure the entire rig is clean. So basically do a steam clean before you distil your low wines.
4) There will be barely any heads to compress, so there will be very little heads smearing in the hearts as barely any got in the rig. By the time tails comes along due to the excellent compression of the rig you stop collection here.

This maximizes yield and neutralness. You could add another pass or carbon if you are paranoid but with a good rig there really is not much need. The important thing is at least two passes, and treatment with base. That removes pretty much any crap from a dirty wash.

Good plan. But now you loose almost all the time benefit of the huge yeast amount. Bicarb treatment also needs time. Ok, some here say, it happens enough during the distillation, but probably more, if you give it time while stabilizing.
Carbon treatment also would need time. But ok, you don't have to supervise it the whole time like a still. If I do it, I need 2.5h per liter 40-50%. It has nothing to do with paranoia, with carbon you get a total different product. Better or worse? It depends on what you want.

[Bagasso]

1) Do a stripping run, don't add the heads, strip till most alcohol is gone (so most tails is in)
2) Treat result with base (bicarb, etc) and let it rest for some time.
3) Do another run this time making sure the entire rig is clean. So basically do a steam clean before you distil your low wines.
4) There will be barely any heads to compress, so there will be very little heads smearing in the hearts as barely any got in the rig. By the time tails comes along due to the excellent compression of the rig you stop collection here.

This would not be going from 5% to 96% in one pass.

In regards to lowering reproduction I still think it is lowered in an overall sense the faster you do the run, but it is just my opinion, it would take a lot of tests and yield comparisons with a stable rig to find out without expensive scientific tools. Currently we can see that at the very least from one test that adding a LOT of yeast does not significantly lower alcohol yield like many have said.

You could at least base your opinions on something. All you have so far is wishful thinking.

You started this thread talking about how clean the fast ferment and clay washes were and know you are talking about doing double/triple runs.

[Bagasso]

Good plan. But now you loose almost all the time benefit of the huge yeast amount. Bicarb treatment also needs time.

But, the main added benefit of the fast ferment is, at least in theory, that there are no esters. Bicarb shouldn't make a differrence or...the theory is wrong.

[der wo]

Sorry, somewhere at page 5 or 6 I forgot, what hoochlover wanted to achieve or prove at the beginning. It is still an interesting experiment for me, but more theoretically.


Ok hoochlover,
400ml water, 60g sugar, 1g epsom salt, 20g bakers yeast, 30°C?

What yeast? The dried stuff or fresh?
A 1l bottle is good?
Stirring air in at the beginning?

It is really not much effort. I will do this after you answered my questions and I will measure the FG and taste and smell it.

[hoochlover]

Sorry, somewhere at page 5 or 6 I forgot, what hoochlover wanted to achieve or prove at the beginning. It is still an interesting experiment for me, but more theoretically.


Ok hoochlover,
400ml water, 60g sugar, 1g epsom salt, 20g bakers yeast, 30°C?

What yeast? The dried stuff or fresh?
A 1l bottle is good?
Stirring air in at the beginning?

It is really not much effort. I will do this after you answered my questions and I will measure the FG and taste and smell it.

Dried yeast, I used 1.25L bottles, if you use a bigger bottle you may get away with needing to "shake the foam down" if it gets too large. Just make sure the yeast and water are mixed enough when you add them. Also don't use epsom salts, its not needed, it seemed like it helped in my earlier tests because I wasn't shaking the foam down (epsoms helps with the foam). Just sugar, water, yeast in the right ratio to get the concentration you want, 30C .

[hoochlover]

Good plan. But now you loose almost all the time benefit of the huge yeast amount. Bicarb treatment also needs time.

But, the main added benefit of the fast ferment is, at least in theory, that there are no esters. Bicarb shouldn't make a differrence or...the theory is wrong.

The main benefit of fast ferment is time really. Less time needed for the ferment, less chance of infection and theoretical/untested benefits in regards to esters and off flavors.

Having done a large batch now and realizing how messy and dirty it turned out being producing it, I just don't know if the "cleanness" aspect of it is relevant any more for me with my setup. A good setup with the right fermentation vessel (stirring), right clearing method (Centrifuge), could get this all good imo, but I don't have them, so yeah. It is a much bigger problem when you scale up and for me at least that aspect is now less important than the others. It is a lot of extra work vs doing another cleaning run, which I was always going to do anyhow. But I will use a lot more yeast than the guides recommend , enough to not overflow my container yet speed it up as much as possible.

I don't really want to argue any points about how clean something is since it is always going to be subjective and reliant upon my character in some way, so I don't want to really talk about that any more. Any further research I do on this I'll just keep to myself unless I have data to back it up and I feel like sharing. This thread has my opinions on the matter relatively well established and hope it has at least been useful to others.

[hoochlover]

1) Do a stripping run, don't add the heads, strip till most alcohol is gone (so most tails is in)
2) Treat result with base (bicarb, etc) and let it rest for some time.
3) Do another run this time making sure the entire rig is clean. So basically do a steam clean before you distil your low wines.
4) There will be barely any heads to compress, so there will be very little heads smearing in the hearts as barely any got in the rig. By the time tails comes along due to the excellent compression of the rig you stop collection here.

This maximizes yield and neutralness. You could add another pass or carbon if you are paranoid but with a good rig there really is not much need. The important thing is at least two passes, and treatment with base. That removes pretty much any crap from a dirty wash.

Good plan. But now you loose almost all the time benefit of the huge yeast amount. Bicarb treatment also needs time. Ok, some here say, it happens enough during the distillation, but probably more, if you give it time while stabilizing.
Carbon treatment also would need time. But ok, you don't have to supervise it the whole time like a still. If I do it, I need 2.5h per liter 40-50%. It has nothing to do with paranoia, with carbon you get a total different product. Better or worse? It depends on what you want.

I don't lose any time because I was always going to do that anyhow, reducing fermenting time should always save you time, in theory.

In regards to carbon treatment how would you describe it over non carbon treated on your SPP rig?

[der wo]

Dried yeast, I used 1.25L bottles, if you use a bigger bottle you may get away with needing to "shake the foam down" if it gets too large. Just make sure the yeast and water are mixed enough when you add them. Also don't use epsom salts, its not needed, it seemed like it helped in my earlier tests because I wasn't shaking the foam down (epsoms helps with the foam). Just sugar, water, yeast in the right ratio to get the concentration you want, 30C .

Ok. I will do it and use it for a starter for my next AG after the experiment. I will do this in one or two weeks.

In regards to carbon treatment how would you describe it over non carbon treated on your SPP rig?

Carbon treatment (stone charcoal, pipe 1m long 2" diameter, flow control) removes all the taste, except for the heads (so a good heads cut is even more important for this). It tastes lighter after that, it has lost the body. It's perfect, if you want to mazerate or vapor infuse with it, because the room is cleaned out now for the taste you want. But for drinking it pure as a vodka, it's boring. No character. No difference between birdwatchers, all bran, feints run, and probably your recipe too. But your tongue is searching. If it's touching 40% or more, it's not possible, to taste really nothing. Perhaps it finds some not so pleasant dryness. Definetely it will not find mellowness.

[hoochlover]

Carbon treatment (stone charcoal, pipe 1m long 2" diameter, flow control) removes all the taste, except for the heads (so a good heads cut is even more important for this). It tastes lighter after that, it has lost the body. It's perfect, if you want to mazerate or vapor infuse with it, because the room is cleaned out now for the taste you want. But for drinking it pure as a vodka, it's boring. No character. No difference between birdwatchers, all bran, feints run, and probably your recipe too. But your tongue is searching. If it's touching 40% or more, it's not possible, to taste really nothing. Perhaps it finds some not so pleasant dryness. Definetely it will not find mellowness.

Well I don't drink pure vodka and I'm after it neutral as possible. I've got a bottle that I rested on carbon and will taste it soon to see if there any differences on my rig.

It is interesting you said you can notice a difference because many people say you can't notice a difference with a "good rig" , or act like carbon treating it is beyond pointless on such rigs. And seeing as you seem to have a decent rig I thought I'd ask! Thanks for your thoughts.

[der wo]

IMO this forum has an American context. It's much orientated on tasteful distilled grain spirits. What many here describe as a good vodka, is a relatively high distilled whiskey with strict cuts. No use for carbon here.
If you look at Russian homedistillers, you see not only higher columns (Lava or SPP, many LMs, often 45° offset) but also carbon pipes (often short ones. Perhaps because they also don't want to strip out all the taste? I am not sure, I only watch their pictures.)

To rest a spirit on carbon of course has not as much effect as pouring it throug. But I think, you will notice it.

[hoochlover]

IMO this forum has an American context. It's much orientated on tasteful distilled grain spirits. What many here describe as a good vodka, is a relatively high distilled whiskey with strict cuts. No use for carbon here.
If you look at Russian homedistillers, you see not only higher columns (Lava or SPP, many LMs, often 45° offset) but also carbon pipes (often short ones. Perhaps because they also don't want to strip out all the taste? I am not sure, I only watch their pictures.)

To rest a spirit on carbon of course has not as much effect as pouring it throug. But I think, you will notice it.

Yeah I am tasting it now and it certainly seems much lighter like you said. So I think carbon treating for me at least is worthwhile. The sulphite taste I've always had in every vodka I've ever had is just gone. On my crappy copper still the carbon treating didn't seem to do much compared to this.

[Bagasso]

The main benefit of fast ferment is time really. Less time needed for the ferment, less chance of infection and theoretical/untested benefits in regards to esters and off flavors.

We get the main benefit. It was already discussed and some said that it was no benefit to them so I thought that was settled and set aside.

The theoretical/untested benefits are based on incomplete info so they are of little use as well.

I don't really want to argue any points about how clean something is since it is always going to be subjective and reliant upon my character in some way, so I don't want to really talk about that any more. Any further research I do on this I'll just keep to myself unless I have data to back it up and I feel like sharing. This thread has my opinions on the matter relatively well established and hope it has at least been useful to others.

The idea is to try it then share experiences to see if there is something to it. You not accepting what others have shared makes it seem like you want this to be true so much that you are willing to disregard what others are saying. Your opinions on the matter won't help anyone if the results are only great to you because of personal bias.

[der wo]

Experiment started:

360ml water
54g sugar
30°C
in 1l bottle with airlock
18g dried yeast

13:00 central european time

30min - the foam has more volume than the wash. One bubble per three seconds.

1h - I had to shake the foam down

2h - The problems with the foam have stopped. All 2-3 seconds a bubble.

6h - still bubbling at full speed

8h - a little bit slower. Smell was extreme lemony at the beginning. Now it's more normal like sparkling wine. No off-smell. Healthy fermentation. At no point sulfur or yeast smell. Good quality.

9.5h - fermentation has stopped or is very slow. pH 4. SG 1.005. Smell is good. Taste of course is yeasty. But there are no other off-tastes. This SG is not acceptable imo. If it does not reach 0.995, it's not enough dry for a wash with a potential of 8% ethanol.

In about 11h I will take a SG measurement again and use it for fermenting rye, I mashed today.

After total 21h it is 0.998. I am sure with a little more time and shaking every few hours, it would reach 0.995 or lower.
Now I see a thick yeast layer. About 25% of the wash is the yeast. I think, when it's cleared complete, it would be the same proportion. That's around 3 or 4 times more than what I get normally fermenting birdwatchers with added nutrients (also unsing 18g yeast, but for 13l total).
Yesterday I liked the smell and taste more. Difficult to say. Of course in the morning I am more critical than in the evening after mashing grain the day.


Conclusion:
-It's possible to ferment water sugar and yeast complete, without adding anything else. And very fast. The yeast has everything it needs.
-I don't have tried out, but I think after treating with clearing agents, it's a high quality wash. But it definetely has fruity esters. It is not something complete new in comparision to birdwatchers.
-With such a recipe, you don't need fertilizers, vitamine-pills and epsom salt, but (more) clearing agents and much more yeast. And you need a really oversized fermenter. And you loose much more with racking off.

My conclusion is:
I will be less stingy with yeast in future and reduce the nutrients. At least for neutral washes.
Or better: For recipes I normally would add nutrients, I will replace them partially with more yeast.

[Bagasso]

I finally found a local source of cat litter that is cheap enough to try. Ground it up in a grain mill. Ended up with a very fine powder mixed with a bit of sand sized bits. Don't know how OP got it to clear in a couple of hours but the stuff I had took a couple of days.

I have since read that it needs to be hydrated with hot water. Also read that it can be used during fermentation. It's used in the wine industry so it isn't something totally out of left field.

Common sugar in my country is sandy colored so my wash ends up looking like a light tea. This stuff actually stripped the color and a bunch of other stuff out of it.

What it did not do is turn a dirty wash into "near perfect alcohol". Smell wise it was really clean but, unlike the OP, I have the habit of actually tasting stuff and it had a cleaner taste but it still tasted like green wash with a hint of clay.

Doesn't matter if running but I was actually expecting fermenter neutral from the way it had been described.

[hoochlover]

I finally found a local source of cat litter that is cheap enough to try. Ground it up in a grain mill. Ended up with a very fine powder mixed with a bit of sand sized bits. Don't know how OP got it to clear in a couple of hours but the stuff I had took a couple of days.

I have since read that it needs to be hydrated with hot water. Also read that it can be used during fermentation. It's used in the wine industry so it isn't something totally out of left field.

Common sugar in my country is sandy colored so my wash ends up looking like a light tea. This stuff actually stripped the color and a bunch of other stuff out of it.

What it did not do is turn a dirty wash into "near perfect alcohol". Smell wise it was really clean but, unlike the OP, I have the habit of actually tasting stuff and it had a cleaner taste but it still tasted like green wash with a hint of clay.

Doesn't matter if running but I was actually expecting fermenter neutral from the way it had been described.

I haven't used cat litter myself, just "Home brew store" clay which could indeed by cat litter. I can't say if it is or isn't. I also used a lot to make it crystal clear, which isn't very economical. When I tried to apply it to my larger batch I would probably need 300g -> 500g to get the same clear clarity for 25L.

[hoochlover]

Experiment started:

360ml water
54g sugar
30°C
in 1l bottle with airlock
18g dried yeast

13:00 central european time

30min - the foam has more volume than the wash. One bubble per three seconds.

1h - I had to shake the foam down

2h - The problems with the foam have stopped. All 2-3 seconds a bubble.

6h - still bubbling at full speed

8h - a little bit slower. Smell was extreme lemony at the beginning. Now it's more normal like sparkling wine. No off-smell. Healthy fermentation. At no point sulfur or yeast smell. Good quality.

9.5h - fermentation has stopped or is very slow. pH 4. SG 1.005. Smell is good. Taste of course is yeasty. But there are no other off-tastes. This SG is not acceptable imo. If it does not reach 0.995, it's not enough dry for a wash with a potential of 8% ethanol.

In about 11h I will take a SG measurement again and use it for fermenting rye, I mashed today.

After total 21h it is 0.998. I am sure with a little more time and shaking every few hours, it would reach 0.995 or lower.
Now I see a thick yeast layer. About 25% of the wash is the yeast. I think, when it's cleared complete, it would be the same proportion. That's around 3 or 4 times more than what I get normally fermenting birdwatchers with added nutrients (also unsing 18g yeast, but for 13l total).
Yesterday I liked the smell and taste more. Difficult to say. Of course in the morning I am more critical than in the evening after mashing grain the day.


Conclusion:
-It's possible to ferment water sugar and yeast complete, without adding anything else. And very fast. The yeast has everything it needs.
-I don't have tried out, but I think after treating with clearing agents, it's a high quality wash. But it definetely has fruity esters. It is not something complete new in comparision to birdwatchers.
-With such a recipe, you don't need fertilizers, vitamine-pills and epsom salt, but (more) clearing agents and much more yeast. And you need a really oversized fermenter. And you loose much more with racking off.

My conclusion is:
I will be less stingy with yeast in future and reduce the nutrients. At least for neutral washes.
Or better: For recipes I normally would add nutrients, I will replace them partially with more yeast.

Thanks for taking the time to do your own test. You seem to have similar conclusions to me, more yeast is going to finish it quicker and whether or not that is good is up for you to decide.

You definitely need better clearing agents the more yeast you add though, unless you don't mind waiting. More yeast = more waiting because there are more yeast, strangely enough the "breeding" of yeast is less commonplace than many think in a typical fermenting vessel. I tried 25% of my yeast quantity and it took 800% the time it would have with the higher amount.

[der wo]

strangely enough the "breeding" of yeast is less commonplace than many think in a typical fermenting vessel. I tried 25% of my yeast quantity and it took 800% the time it would have with the higher amount.

Without the influence of breeding and dying 400% would sound logical.
Definetely the more yeast you pitch, the more yeast you will have at the end in the sediment. But at the same proportion? I don't think, 100% more yeast doubles the sediment. Do you have results here?

The initial amount of yeast has perhaps an influence on:
-birth rate. This has two sides: Birthing needs time, but after that you have more workers.
-cannibalism. This for sure cost time, because fighting and eating needs time and after that you have less workers.
But perhaps this is not important. Because:
For sure more yeast rises the fermentation speed. And this rises the:
-temperature. What again rises the speed.
-agitation. What also rises the speed.
So more speed leads to even more speed (within limits). What means, in proper circumstances 100% more yeast leads to more than double-speed.

[Bagasso]

I haven't used cat litter myself, just "Home brew store" clay which could indeed by cat litter. I can't say if it is or isn't.

Pretty sure it isn't the exact same thing. Even clay from one region to the next will be different. Just sharing how it worked for me. The most important thing to me was that it stripped out the color of the wash so there is a whole lot of filtering going on.

I also used a lot to make it crystal clear, which isn't very economical. When I tried to apply it to my larger batch I would probably need 300g -> 500g to get the same clear clarity for 25L.

The main difference for me was the time. It took between 2 and 3 days to clear. It did clear better but, like I said above, the thing for me is the actual filtering and not how long it takes to clear.

From what I could find on the net is seems like activated charcoal works on non-polar chemicals and bentonite works on polar ones.

Already have pounds of both so a one-two punch on low wines seems like my next test.

[hoochlover]

From what I could find on the net is seems like activated charcoal works on non-polar chemicals and bentonite works on polar ones.

Already have pounds of both so a one-two punch on low wines seems like my next test.

Any updates on your experiments? What is your current method for getting a neutral?

[Bagasso]

Any updates on your experiments? What is your current method for getting a neutral?

Hard to believe this thread went silent two years ago and honestly I have not done any real experimenting except that I have gotten into the habit of dropping copper off cuts into my wash for a day or so to help with sulpher compounds.

I have tried a few things but despite my assertion two years ago I did not have pounds of activated carbon. I had a bit and I thought I could get more but the only pet store that stocked it told me they were out and didn't have any plans to get more.

The most recent test was with chalk (gypsum, plaster of paris) after seeing someone mention it in an old thread about people adding it to wine but the stuff I got must have been different because it had a burnt smell, actually what I remember the stuff smelling like from art class, and it just ruined the wash and even came over with the low wines.

Another thing I have tried is vegetable oil in watered down low wines (hydroseparation). I drop the ABV down to around 20% and then I add about a tablespoon of vegetable oil per liter. Let it separate and then run the bottom layer. I have even filtered with a funnel and a compressed cotton ball and I seem to feel that it takes a lot of the heat out but it is no where near neutral.

To be honest I'm not really after neutral. I'm content with a good mixer. With the bar that low I have used these two tricks to make low wines that fit my needs. Right now I'm drinking, mixed, a copper treated stripping run. Soaked a foot of 1/2" copper tube in my fermentor for about 3 days and stripped a liter of 12% sugar wash to about 300 ml of 40% and mixed with lemonade it tastes drinkable. Nothing to write home about but at about 50 cents (including electricity to strip) I can't help but be OK with that, even if it isn't neutral.

[hoochlover]

Any updates on your experiments? What is your current method for getting a neutral?

Hard to believe this thread went silent two years ago and honestly I have not done any real experimenting except that I have gotten into the habit of dropping copper off cuts into my wash for a day or so to help with sulpher compounds..

Thanks for the update. Yeah I blew up my original boiler by accidentally running it dry in a cleaning run and the difficulty in finding a new real one (instead of crappy turbo 500 one) made me abandon the hobby for a while. I managed to find a supplier of a keg boiler that I hope will be suitable for some time so I am getting back into it. You seemed to have a good experience in getting a neutral so was just interested what your current method was.

I'm about to ferment 90 litres of a 10% sugar wash and I will be using about 1000g of dried yeast to achieve it. My current plan is to strip that 10% ferment with a modular pot still and put that on a ph treatment for a little while. Then run it through my new 4 foot SPP packed 3 inch reflux still and see what happens, I''ll test it with and without carbon treatment to see if its noticeable to me. One thing I realized with SPP due to it density is it holds any smells from the brew so well compared to my other packing methods I had used. So I don't want those "dirty" washes to be run through it because cleaning it to get rid of any smell is a big operation.

[Bagasso]

You seemed to have a good experience in getting a neutral so was just interested what your current method was.

I actually got a good result from the bentonite in regards to smell but it did not taste neutral.

I'm trying to think back why I stopped experimenting with it. I know that it left a gritty mouthfeel to the wash even after filtering and since the goal then was to see if I could avoid distilling, that was a deal breaker but looking at this thread again made me dump a tablespoon of it in a gallon just to make sure if it also wasn't something off after stilling.

One thing I realized with SPP due to it density is it holds any smells from the brew so well compared to my other packing methods I had used. So I don't want those "dirty" washes to be run through it because cleaning it to get rid of any smell is a big operation.

There is something I don't get about the method behind your madness (not to be taken the wrong way). From a couple vids on the matter it seems like nothing more than a 10-15 min soak in acidic water. Maybe I'm missing something? Is cleaning SPP a bigger operation than using fining agents?
- If so then why not use the fining and something easy to clean, like marbles, since the packing won't have smells to deal with?
- If not then why not forego the fining and just clean the SPP?

[hoochlover]

There is something I don't get about the method behind your madness (not to be taken the wrong way). From a couple vids on the matter it seems like nothing more than a 10-15 min soak in acidic water. Maybe I'm missing something? Is cleaning SPP a bigger operation than using fining agents?
- If so then why not use the fining and something easy to clean, like marbles, since the packing won't have smells to deal with?
- If not then why not forego the fining and just clean the SPP?

Taking the SPP out of the pipe is something I want to avoid as much as possible, it is a PITA to clean it because of how small and dense it is, easy to spill them. I'm hoping a citric acid and steam bath will be enough to get rid of any future smells. The tails is the stuff that sticks in there the most so I just want to do a stripping run in an easy to clean pot still so that no yeast or scorching or whatever gets in my "clean" neutral parts. I will do some rough cuts even on the stripping run to avoid tainting as much as I can.

Since I am always going to do at least two runs to get the kind of neutral I want it just made sense for me to get a couple more parts and have a pot still I can attach to my boiler to do the stripping run. And I may eventually do some brown spirits which that will be helpful for. Since I upgraded to a 3inch pipe I will probably have to use all of the 4.8kw power I have in the new boiler to get the pipe bubbling like the russians do. My old 2KW boiler couldn't even distill water through the 2inch pipe with SPP due to how much heat was lost. I got some sight towers too so I will be able to see what is happening at the top and bottom of the still when running.

Just a couple more days until everything arrives and I just finished putting on 95L of ferments in two 60l barrels, one with table sugar and one with dextrose. 500g yeast in each, started at 30c and already going crazy. No crazy foaming at these levels of yeast which is good, but I also find wiping up the very white foam after pitching helps keep the brown foam down too (the monostearate they bind the dried yeast with to keep it alive floats to the top after ~10 mins).

[Bagasso]

Taking the SPP out of the pipe is something I want to avoid as much as possible, it is a PITA to clean it because of how small and dense it is, easy to spill them.

I understand that but the videos I watched didn't seem to show much extra care needed, other than a pot, a colander and a funnel, to perform the cleaning.

I'm hoping a citric acid and steam bath will be enough to get rid of any future smells. The tails is the stuff that sticks in there the most so I just want to do a stripping run in an easy to clean pot still so that no yeast or scorching or whatever gets in my "clean" neutral parts. I will do some rough cuts even on the stripping run to avoid tainting as much as I can.

Of course there's more than one way to skin a cat. I was just thinking that you are making SPP cleaning out to be a bigger PITA than it really is. Anyway, maybe getting a large enough pvc pipe with one end capped so that you can slip your entire column into a citric acid/water solution without taking the SPP out might be one way to make it even easier.

I was just wondering how a stripping run and/or fining compare to SPP cleaning because a stripping run is a large operation itself. I mean even at 4.8Kw a 45L stripping run is going to take a couple of hours.

In the end I guess it's just a matter of taste and perceived convenience. To me treating the wash with copper, bentonite, AC and/or whatever else and being able to just do a single run is fine. If I could find a way to do something that turns a wash into a 10-12% vodka or neutral with no stilling needed would be even better, I don't mind the low ABV, but I have yet to find it.

[hoochlover]

Of course there's more than one way to skin a cat. I was just thinking that you are making SPP cleaning out to be a bigger PITA than it really is. Anyway, maybe getting a large enough pvc pipe with one end capped so that you can slip your entire column into a citric acid/water solution without taking the SPP out might be one way to make it even easier.

Yeah I could do more thinking about making the cleaning easier I guess. Just taking apart my still which is hanging from the roof to support itself is a hassle. With all the SPP in its quite heavy and cumbersome.

I was just wondering how a stripping run and/or fining compare to SPP cleaning because a stripping run is a large operation itself. I mean even at 4.8Kw a 45L stripping run is going to take a couple of hours.

My 2KW boiler with SPP stripped 25L in around a hour, I'm hoping the pot still will do 45L in same time. My current operation will end up giving me around 25 x 1L bottles of 80 proof, which is about 6 weeks worth of alcohol for me. Taking maybe 10 hours of work to do it.

In the end I guess it's just a matter of taste and perceived convenience. To me treating the wash with copper, bentonite, AC and/or whatever else and being able to just do a single run is fine. If I could find a way to do something that turns a wash into a 10-12% vodka or neutral with no stilling needed would be even better, I don't mind the low ABV, but I have yet to find it.

Yeah I mix all my vodka down to ~10% too, but with mixes not plain.

[Bagasso]

Yeah I could do more thinking about making the cleaning easier I guess. Just taking apart my still which is hanging from the roof to support itself is a hassle. With all the SPP in its quite heavy and cumbersome.

Here is another idea, if you are using a tri-clover to attach the column to the keg, how about finding a lid that you can clamp on the bottom with the tri-clover so that you can pour the cleaning solution into the top, let soak and then just loosen the tri-clover to drain, maybe hose down to rinse.

My 2KW boiler with SPP stripped 25L in around a hour, I'm hoping the pot still will do 45L in same time.

I have no hands on experience and was just going by the calc on the parent site. Of course starting temp and cut off point would change actual running time. Also, I included heat-up time.

My current operation will end up giving me around 25 x 1L bottles of 80 proof, which is about 6 weeks worth of alcohol for me. Taking maybe 10 hours of work to do it.

That is how I would measure it as well but I'm thinking that it would take 5 minutes to put down 100L of 10% wash and if I had a magic spigot it would take nothing more.

Back to reality, if you could run 45L in the pot in about an hour and not have to do another run then you would have the same results in 1/10 of the time. Even a single run through the column plus the cleaning routine would still save you 3/4 of those 10 hours. I mean, that is the idea behind making a good wash, and by extension, treating the wash.

Yeah I mix all my vodka down to ~10% too, but with mixes not plain.

Yeah, it depends on what you are using. I usually use powdered iced tea or lemonade/fruit drinks. I would have no problem just dumping the powder into the wash if it were clean enough. Last time I tried it I ended up praying to the porcelain god after about 1L. Not a huge amount of alcohol at 10% but there was this off note that lingered in my mouth and nose until it just made me throw up.

[hoochlover]

Here is another idea, if you are using a tri-clover to attach the column to the keg, how about finding a lid that you can clamp on the bottom with the tri-clover so that you can pour the cleaning solution into the top, let soak and then just loosen the tri-clover to drain, maybe hose down to rinse.

Hah, who says I need to do thinking about it when you do for me! That is a great idea actually.

That is how I would measure it as well but I'm thinking that it would take 5 minutes to put down 100L of 10% wash and if I had a magic spigot it would take nothing more.

Back to reality, if you could run 45L in the pot in about an hour and not have to do another run then you would have the same results in 1/10 of the time. Even a single run through the column plus the cleaning routine would still save you 3/4 of those 10 hours. I mean, that is the idea behind making a good wash, and by extension, treating the wash.

Thinking about what you want here is what I would do :-
1) Use good water for the ferment, I would use reverse osmosis since you are going to drink this straight
2) Once ferment is finished let the yeast settle, rack it off to another container
3) Add a lot of bentonite (there may be other finings ok too but I know if you use enough bento it gets it near water clear) and agitate it a bit
4) Once clear, pass that through a charcoal filter

Maybe you have tried this already? I would think it would make a 10% somewhat neutralish brew but I doubt it would be as good as the still route. Maybe I should treat a litre of my ferment this way and see what happens. I feel like the heads component would be more present than a still but you could remove a lot of the tails. I've left a couple of 80 proof runs that were very headsy "open to the air" and agitated them a bit over 2 weeks, it did reduce but not totally eliminate some smells.

[hoochlover]

The most recent test was with chalk (gypsum, plaster of paris) after seeing someone mention it in an old thread about people adding it to wine but the stuff I got must have been different because it had a burnt smell, actually what I remember the stuff smelling like from art class, and it just ruined the wash and even came over with the low wines.

I tested ~20KG of gypsum with a small lake on my property I was trying to clear out from clay. It worked OKish in clearing the top 6 inches of water. The most recommended flocculant is aluminium sulphate, and I tried 2kg of that in a much bigger lake and it cleared about ~500000L of "cant see through it" clay water into clear river type water, but only after it was mixed in. It is found at pool supply stores.

Which makes me wonder how well alum sulphate would do with brewing, obviously it is a sulphate (and aluminium) which we don't want but maybe charcoal filtering would remove it and maybe you don't need very much of it with such small quantities given how effective it is in clearing. I'll try it out on a sample of my current ferment, see how it clears.

[Bagasso]

Thinking about what you want here is what I would do :-
1) Use good water for the ferment, I would use reverse osmosis since you are going to drink this straight
2) Once ferment is finished let the yeast settle, rack it off to another container
3) Add a lot of bentonite (there may be other finings ok too but I know if you use enough bento it gets it near water clear) and agitate it a bit
4) Once clear, pass that through a charcoal filter

Maybe you have tried this already? I would think it would make a 10% somewhat neutralish brew but I doubt it would be as good as the still route. Maybe I should treat a litre of my ferment this way and see what happens. I feel like the heads component would be more present than a still but you could remove a lot of the tails. I've left a couple of 80 proof runs that were very headsy "open to the air" and agitated them a bit over 2 weeks, it did reduce but not totally eliminate some smells.

Tried all that and every other piece of advice I've found here, in regards to sugar washes, and I've never had anything near neutral. Even after bentonite and carbon, which I am doing right now, it still has this signature funk that I always seem to have, which, thinking back, is probably why I stopped experimenting with them.

Which makes me wonder how well alum sulphate would do with brewing, obviously it is a sulphate (and aluminium) which we don't want...

Actually bentonite is also an aluminium phyllosilicate clay, like kaolin, speaking of which, my daughter was given a bit of ceramic powder in art class which I tried on a sample with good results but I'm still not sure what it actually is. If it is kaolin then it is also an alumina, not that it worries me, my use of copper to the point where the wash takes on a blue-green tinge pretty much forces me to run anyway and any clays would remain in the boiler along with the copper compounds.

[hoochlover]

Tried all that and every other piece of advice I've found here, in regards to sugar washes, and I've never had anything near neutral. Even after bentonite and carbon, which I am doing right now, it still has this signature funk that I always seem to have, which, thinking back, is probably why I stopped experimenting with them.

Tried a dextrose run? First time I've run dextrose, and side by side it did foam less. Both of my current runs needed some small physical management to keep foam in the barrels with my ~10g yeast per litre amount I used. Bit of rocking back and forth in hours 6-9, after that as the ABV increases the foam stops.

People say dextrose runs are cleaner but I don't have enough experience with it.