Natural Enzymes to break down starch

Post by **nuncaquite** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:33 pm

I am curious if fruits that "self destruct" on their own would do the same for starch grains. Such as bananas, pineapple, and ohters seem to reach a point and then just consume themselfs through their own enzymes. Would they take corn or rice "cooked'' down that path with them?

Post by **shadylane** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:00 pm

I can't remember reading about enzymes in fruit being used to convert additional starch.
That doesn't mean it can't be done or isn't commonly done.
Or it may be I read about it and forgot.

DAD300 · Post by **DAD300** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:19 pm

Yes...the natural enzyme that grows on bananas and onions is Aspergillus niger (the black mold in onions), the same stuff sold as SEBamyl-GL. They just culture and grow it in the lab setting.

SEBamyl-GL works on all grains/starch.

Aspergillus niger or A. niger is a fungus and one of the most common species of the genus Aspergillus.

It causes a disease called black mould on certain fruits and vegetables such as grapes, apricots, onions, and peanuts, and is a common contaminant of food.

Aspergillus oryzae comes off a mold grown on wood and added to rice to break the starches.

Post by **raketemensch** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:25 pm

Interesting, I was recently wondering why people don't seem to be purposely cultivating lactobacillus. Maybe they are, and I just haven't heard about it.

Monkeyman88 · Post by **Monkeyman88** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:08 pm

Isn't that in every yogurt?

Post by **raketemensch** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:37 pm

Well, I meant for distilling. I've read of many experiences where people liked the results of a distilled, lacto-infected wash.

You're right, with all of the yogurt cultures out there, both chemical and human, there must be some lactobacillus additives available.

[fake edit] You can get freeze-dried lactobacillus on Amazon.

I'm not volunteering for it, I'm just wondering if people who've experienced them thought it would be worth trying to recreate.

[real edit] maybe that should be its own thread. sorry for hijacking, but you got me thinking.

DAD300 · Post by **DAD300** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:20 pm

You can buy lactobacillus capsules at any drug or nutritional store in the U.S. as a digestive aid. One cap will def start an infection.

You can get Aspergillus oryzae at most serious Asian grocers. They call it Koji or Chinese yeast balls.

Aspergillus oryzae is very slow (days) to convert starches compared to Aspergillus niger (minutes).

rager · Post by **rager** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:10 pm

love learning new stuff

Post by **raketemensch** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:31 pm

DAD300 wrote:You can buy lactobacillus capsules at any drug or nutritional store in the U.S. as a digestive aid. One cap will def start an infection.

You can get Aspergillus oryzae at most serious Asian grocers. They call it Koji or Chinese yeast balls.

Aspergillus oryzae is very slow (days) to convert starches compared to Aspergillus niger (minutes).

OK, so my remaining question is whether the people who have run lacto-infected washes found them good or different enough to make it worth doing on purpose.

It sounds easier than malting

Post by **rubber duck** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:51 pm

Don't forget about ginger root, it will do the job if your in a hard spot.

Post by **rubber duck** » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:54 pm

Old folks that where in turned or pows used it, and it works remarkably well.

NZChris · Post by **NZChris** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:51 am

raketemensch wrote:OK, so my remaining question is whether the people who have run lacto-infected washes found them good or different enough to make it worth doing on purpose.

It sounds easier than malting

Lacto won't breakdown starch, as far as I know. It adds flavor, which can be good, or bad, depending on timing and the skill of the distiller. I added lacto to my last series of UJ ferments using cheese starter, but didn't get the timing right and the pH was already too low for it to make much difference to the final product. The spent grain the birds are getting smells great.

Post by **masonsjax** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:41 am

Sour beer brewers cultivate lactobacillus often. I sour mash for beer pretty often too which is when you throw a handful of raw uncrushed grain into the mash between 90-130 degrees Fahrenheit and leave it for 1-3 days. This allows the lacto on the grain to sour the entire mash prior to pitching yeast.

Some will culture lacto from grain, yogurt, sauerkraut, etc, or buy it from commercial yeast manufacturers like White Labs or Wyeast, make an anaerobic starter and pitch that with yeast into their wort directly.

Lacto on its own will not break down starch. It needs simple sugars. Some bacterias/brettanomyces we use in brewing can eat starch though. Some strains of lacto will not create alcohol, only lactic acid and the ones that do produce ethanol, it's not a lot. Lacto for distilling would be (as NZchris stated) for flavor.

Post by **MichiganCornhusker** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:15 am

rubber duck wrote:Don't forget about ginger root, it will do the job if your in a hard spot.

I've read that before, would like to try it out sometime. I like the taste of ginger anyway...
I've read that sweet potatoes also have enzymes enough to convert themselves, maybe enough to work through some grains tossed in with them, too.

Post by **rubber duck** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:03 am

Yep sweet potato will convert themselves but it helps if your mash is really acidic.

You can actually convert grain with sulfuric acid belive it or not but I wouldn't try drinking it.

Post by **nuncaquite** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:23 pm

From experience I know that about a 1/4 cup wood ash tossed into a 1/2 of a 5 gallon bucket of corn "well hydrated corn"
will take the skins off and soften the corn when boiled. Not really converted I dont think, but well on its way.
This is actually the start to home made tortillas. Just in case you work up an appetite mashing.

Post by **FreeMountainHermit** » Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:34 pm

nuncaquite wrote:will take the skins off and soften the corn when boiled.

nuncaquite, will the skins then be skimmed off and discarded or remain and be incorporated into the mashing process ?

Thank you.

Post by **nuncaquite** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:46 am

The wood ash and water make a very weak lye solution. (Or something similar to lye) After the boil, the corn is rinsed well to remove the ash water.
For tortillas they scoop out the skins and use the masa (corn mash) to make the bread. The lye solution breaks down the fibers in the corn. This process is finished for tortillas shortly after the skins shed and the corn gets a bit soft. At that point it is ground/mashed into the flour. Ive never seen the boil continued after that. So I cant really say what would come afterwards.

In South America the corn (after is has matured, dried, and hardend) is often put into an oven to reach a temp that will kill off the moth larvie. So they are dealing with a superhard seed. This is why the ash used. Without ash they would have to boil the corn for hours and more hours.

BourbonStreet · Post by **BourbonStreet** » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:06 pm

raketemensch wrote:
DAD300 wrote:You can buy lactobacillus capsules at any drug or nutritional store in the U.S. as a digestive aid. One cap will def start an infection.

You can get Aspergillus oryzae at most serious Asian grocers. They call it Koji or Chinese yeast balls.

Aspergillus oryzae is very slow (days) to convert starches compared to Aspergillus niger (minutes).
OK, so my remaining question is whether the people who have run lacto-infected washes found them good or different enough to make it worth doing on purpose.

It sounds easier than malting

I never knew much about lacto until a few months ago. I had a batch of UJSSM that had been sitting for over 6 months. It had white growth on the top, and I scooped that off and ran it. It was probably the best UJSSM I've ever made. The sweet corn flavor came through, with very little sourness.

Home Distiller