Three enzyme situation?

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amdamgraham
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Three enzyme situation?

Post by amdamgraham »

I have ventured into Rye whiskey from straight corn and have always had low yield so I've been re-reading a lot of posts. I have a typical 5-6 gallon scenario and I use a mashbill of 75% rye to 25% corn. I grind very fine and use the 1.8/2 lbs per gallon grain to water ratio and my tap water is PH7 so readings stay in the right range. I also will be using a paddle mixer in my next batch to try expose as much starch as possible. I distill on grain with a pot still. Anyway, as I was reading some posts it appeared to me that there might be a three enzyme scenario, especially with a high rye content mash. Enzymash sells three liquid enzymes: Alpha HTL, SebFloTL for mashing in and breaking down cell walls and Sebamyl GL for saccharification (as I understand). Does the following protocol make sense or could it be improved?: Add corn to water and start heat, as soon as corn mash starts to thicken add alpha to keep it thin. Continue to bring up the temp then hold at about 190F for a full hour. Turn off the heat and allow to cool. At about 180F add some more HTL Alpha again in case I denatured what I added in the first round, then wait until about 165F to add the crushed rye which should cool the mash to about 158, then add SebFlo TL to help break down the rye, allow to cool to 122F and add SebAmyl GL then wrap up tight and let sit overnight.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I have all three, but have yet to use the rye (I will be doing an all oat whiskey soon, will be needing it then! ). But, you should aim for a mash temp of 150, and then add the low temp and the rye at 150. I think it was HDNB that tried the rye on the way up, and on the way down, and said on the way down was way better than using it on the way up. And it falls in line with the instructions from the seller, which states to add rye and low temp at the same time, at 150 on the way down.
Last edited by ShineonCrazyDiamond on Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

amdamgraham wrote:I have ventured into Rye whiskey from straight corn and have always had low yield so I've been re-reading a lot of posts. I have a typical 5-6 gallon scenario and I use a mashbill of 75% rye to 25% corn. I grind very fine and use the 1.8/2 lbs per gallon grain to water ratio and my tap water is PH7 so readings stay in the right range. I also will be using a paddle mixer in my next batch to try expose as much starch as possible. I distill on grain with a pot still. Anyway, as I was reading some posts it appeared to me that there might be a three enzyme scenario, especially with a high rye content mash. Enzymash sells three liquid enzymes: Alpha HTL, SebFloTL for mashing in and breaking down cell walls and Sebamyl GL for saccharification (as I understand). Does the following protocol make sense or could it be improved?: Add corn to water and start heat, as soon as corn mash starts to thicken add alpha to keep it thin. Continue to bring up the temp then hold at about 190F for a full hour. Turn off the heat and allow to cool. At about 180F add some more HTL Alpha again in case I denatured what I added in the first round, then wait until about 165F to add the crushed rye which should cool the mash to about 158, then add SebFlo TL to help break down the rye, allow to cool to 122F and add SebAmyl GL then wrap up tight and let sit overnight.
Close, but SebFlo inactivates around 158°F. I add SebFlo amd SebAmyl both at about 140°F

SebFlo helps both high rye and high barley mashes. I'm still on the fence about whether beta-glucan enzymes reduce some of the "low malt notes" in the final product. I do know that they help the mash to finish dryer and increase brewhouse efficiency. For a commercial operation, this is important, but I like the "malt" flavors. Question, does having more unconverted beta-glucans contribute to the flavor profile? Too many experiments, too little time.

edit: Just saw SCD's comments. Additional comments below.

I target my malt additions at 145°F, but I mash in 50G batches so I don't get much of a temp drop after addition of malted grains. At above 150°F or so you will denature some of the enzymes, and not get as good of a conversion.

I do mine in the way down as well. I boil water, remove heat and add the corn, wait for 180°F add HTL, wait for 145‘F add malts, wait for 140°F add SebFlo and SebAmyl, wait for 95°F add yeast.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

I can state with utmost confidence from my experimentations (albeit usually unintentional experimentations), that a higher fg ( which can be achieved from unconverted beta glucans) leads to a sweeter, more complex, full mouth feeling whiskey. With my enzymes I will miss this, but I also want a mash to finish dry for once. Need a dry crisp line up, too. And I want more whiskey out of a barrel.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

amdamgraham wrote:...then wait until about 165F to add the crushed rye which should cool the mash to about 158, then add SebFlo TL to help break down the rye, allow to cool to 122F and add SebAmyl GL then wrap up tight and let sit overnight.
I just used the SebFlo for a batch of rye malt whiskey that I'm doing and I think I remember the best temp for the sebFlo to be around 140F. Adding on the way up in temp will denature it, on the way down it will keep working.
Der Wo likes lower temps for mashing, the 122F might work fine, I haven't tried mashing at temps that low. Most aim for 145F-150F.

Interesting thing on this latest batch of rye that I'm doing. Just before pitching yeast I pulled out a sample of the wort and put it into a cup and set it aside to settle and clear so that I could get a good OG. I patted myself on the back for hitting 1.065 deadnuts.
A couple days later I checked SG of the ferment and it was still at 1.065 even though it seemed to be fermenting quite vigorously.

Later that day I noticed that I hadn't cleaned out the cup containing the original sample I pulled for OG. I checked that sample again and it was up to about 1.075. I just checked it again today and it is up to 1.085! Starches are still being converted about as fast as the barrel is fermenting. First time I ever checked that, was quite surprised. I'm going to just leave this sample out and see where it goes.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote:I can state with utmost confidence from my experimentations (albeit usually unintentional experimentations), that a higher fg ( which can be achieved from unconverted beta glucans) leads to a sweeter, more complex, full mouth feeling whiskey. With my enzymes I will miss this, but I also want a mash to finish dry for once. Need a dry crisp line up, too. And I want more whiskey out of a barrel.
Interesting. My standard rye bourbon (75# corn, 12.5# rye malt, 12.5# 2 row barley malt - in 50 Gal water) will give me 68 - 70 points of attenuation (1.070 - 1.072 OG, and 1.002FG) with a theoretical 75 points available. I believe that this is a pretty good brewhouse efficiency (90% +). This is using all three enzymes. I need to do some comparisons without using the SebFlo. I don't have any good data with or w/o SebFlo for flavor, but my instincts are that I will get more "mouth feel" or "low malt notes" without SebFlo, but at a cost of brewhouse efficiency. More experiments, sigh. I am getting another stripping boiler this weekend, so I can do more experiments in the same time (2 mashes at once).

Damn, between work and hobbies, not much time to actually drink. :(
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by HDNB »

not sayin' i do this lots...but well, i do this lots.

after numerous attempts this is the latest protocol:
heat water to 175, add grain on a continuous mixer +heat until i get to 150-180g/L and it starts to thicken. then i add 1/2 the HTL and keep adding the other half of the grain, until i get to 250g/L and then i cook up to 195, turn off the heat and add the other 1/2 of HTL when the temp drops to 190.
continuously stirring, i let it go for 90 minutes cooling naturally from 190 and then force cool it to 157* and add malt at 50g/L which drops the temperature to 149*
Then i add GL and sebFLO at the same time at 149 (immediately after malt) and leave it continuously mix for 90 minutes and then force cool it 110 and pitch yeast. and then turn off the mixer and just let it sit.

not sure of the math because i'm lazy as hell but I just put down 4 of these and they came in 1078 to 1082 (at 110* ish) so even higher with temp correction. i think it picks up.002 when it cools to room temp.
first one stalled at just under 1.028 and the next 3 finished 1.000 I have no idea why the first stopped, but truth be told i just reviewed my notes and i used the last of a bag of DADY on it and then opened a new batch for the next 3, so i'm calling this one tired yeast, even though i had no problems with that batch of yeast a few weeks ago when i did the same recipe.

and yes, as mentioned, i tried beta glucan rest at 115 and also adding sebflo on the way up, neither seemed to help the rye viscosity much, and those mashes FG'd at 1.002.

adding sebflo at mash temps on the way down noticeably reduced mash viscosity and they finished dry with the fresh yeast.

i would also add that the low wines on this batch (with continuous stirring being the biggest difference) seem to have turned out to be the best i've done from the taste and smell of the wort, and the low wines. I'm going to spirit run soon...but i'm really excited about the quality of this round. All indicators point to it being an outstanding batch!
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

You must be on external heat (propane or??) To get that OG, how much grain to H2O are you using? 2.2lbs/G or ?
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by HDNB »

steam jacket.

300g/L so...2.5lbs/us gallon?

actually 250g/L grain and 50g/L malt
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

HDNB wrote:steam jacket.

300g/L so...2.5lbs/us gallon?

actually 250g/L grain and 50g/L malt
Makes sense. I have standardized on 2Lb/gal or 240g/L total. Commonly 75% grain, and 25% malt, depending on DP. I like a high corn bourbon for the sweetness that corn brings. But to each their own.

My mash tun/fermenter/thumper (MFT) has electric elements in it, so I have to work from the top temp down. i.e I bring the water to a boil, then disconnect the heaters, and temps will be what they will be on the way down. I just add ingredients at the appropriate temps.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

My original unfermented wort sample is now up to 1.088, the fermentation is now down to 1.032, so making good progress.

I'm not exactly sure what my water/grain ratio is. I wound up with about 130# rye in a 55 gallon trash can, almost filled.
I'm probably right around 2.5#/gal.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

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I have a question on grinding the grain. I want to try this method on a small scale. I purchased grains ( rye wheat barley ) at a cooking supply store. The husks are removed all there is is the seed. Do I need to break the seed smaller? They are very hard. I tried a small food processor and the seeds just laughed at it. Any information would be helpful.

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Re: Three enzyme situation?

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Another question how do I get rid of the Tapatalk line?

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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by HDNB »

you got to mill the grain. whole seed will just swell up and not give over any amount of starch. plus it will all float and the grain cap will never fall so a lot of the grain won't even get wet, before it rots in a few days.

a roller mill if you can, an old blender if you can't get one. coarse crack will do it, the blender will make it finer and you'll do better...but you'll be doing it a cup, cup and half at a time.

the tapatalk line is a setting in the app itself. i don't use it so i don't know exactly where it is, just look through the app menu.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by Rick Martin »

HDNB wrote:you got to mill the grain. whole seed will just swell up and not give over any amount of starch. plus it will all float and the grain cap will never fall so a lot of the grain won't even get wet, before it rots in a few days.

a roller mill if you can, an old blender if you can't get one. coarse crack will do it, the blender will make it finer and you'll do better...but you'll be doing it a cup, cup and half at a time.

the tapatalk line is a setting in the app itself. i don't use it so i don't know exactly where it is, just look through the app menu.
I bought a rollermill and it either pulls the seed through or like sands it depending on how far apart I set the rollers. Is there a discussion on setting up mills?
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by Rick Martin »

HDNB wrote:you got to mill the grain. whole seed will just swell up and not give over any amount of starch. plus it will all float and the grain cap will never fall so a lot of the grain won't even get wet, before it rots in a few days.

a roller mill if you can, an old blender if you can't get one. coarse crack will do it, the blender will make it finer and you'll do better...but you'll be doing it a cup, cup and half at a time.

the tapatalk line is a setting in the app itself. i don't use it so i don't know exactly where it is, just look through the app menu.
Thank you for sending me in the right direction
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

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Rick Martin wrote:Another question how do I get rid of the Tapatalk line?

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site:http://homedistiller.org/forum remove tapatalk
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by HDNB »

cheap mills are a PITA but they can be made to work.

hook up a drill or motor to it. get it rolling 3-500rpm.

from off, add a cup of blender milled grain to get things started and add seed on top (not too much in case you got to clean it out.) apply power and keep feeding the grain!

try adjusting one side a bit tighter than the other. there is a different sweet spot that will work on almost anything...but it is tighter for rye, a bit looser for wheat. soft as malt is, it's tough to get rolling

whole corn. ain't gonna happen.

if you get it under power and got some grain in the hopper, use a razor knife to move the idler roller a bit to get it to move and it will grab grain and go if the gap is decent.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

Post by Rick Martin »

HDNB wrote:cheap mills are a PITA but they can be made to work.

hook up a drill or motor to it. get it rolling 3-500rpm.

from off, add a cup of blender milled grain to get things started and add seed on top (not too much in case you got to clean it out.) apply power and keep feeding the grain!

try adjusting one side a bit tighter than the other. there is a different sweet spot that will work on almost anything...but it is tighter for rye, a bit looser for wheat. soft as malt is, it's tough to get rolling

whole corn. ain't gonna happen.

if you get it under power and got some grain in the hopper, use a razor knife to move the idler roller a bit to get it to move and it will grab grain and go if the gap is decent.
Thank you. I will try it tomorrow.
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Re: Three enzyme situation?

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Rick Martin wrote:
Location: Phiadelphia Eagles Country (next year Super Bowl bound asusual)

I suspect that you created your profile with a hint of sarcasm ... time to update it (and correct typos).
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