Anybody know what this infection might be in my dunder

[distiller_dresden]

Anybody know what this infection might be in my dunder, or is it too early to tell?

I've had it in the dark, in my laundry 'room', which is in the middle of my house in a pantry, on top of the washing machine, covered with aluminum foil. Opened the closet to do some wash yesterday and noticed a fruity/sourish smell, checked my dunder bucket and lo and behold - an infection has begun.

It's little white kind of poofs, and it's kind of forming in like spirals or something, also there is a film you can't see, like when I move the bucket, the whole surface moves like there is a thick clear millimeter gelatin over it.

[Shine0n]

Jon, that is what my pellicle looks like on my rum dunder. It will add some very nice notes to your final product if ran with your low wines on a spirit run.

DD, add more to it later when you do another rum. Then do the addition to the low wines at 15-25%

Looks like the beginning of a beautiful relationship!

[distiller_dresden]

Well, I don't do a low wines, I have a thump keg so I typically just run my wash through once and done; would would say I'd add this to the pot before I do a rum cook? Would I add to the thump - I typically charge my thump with 32oz of liquid before a run.

And from what I gather it's white so it's not a bad infection, eh? I only have a 5 gallon still, I have about 2.5 gallons of dunder in this bucket growing whatever this is - what addition do I make to 5 gallons, and is it not infected enough yet to make a difference, does the whole cap need to be established?

EDIT - got split so part of comment to someone up thread didn't make any sense.

[distiller_dresden]

Adding; my 'pit' is just dunder from my pot after it cooled. Should I be diluting that with water, and maybe bringing the PH up some with some potassium bicarb maybe? The infection I have going just started on it's own, but it's been about 3 weeks since I put it in that bucket for this to start.

[der wo]

Only from a picture it's not possible to know, which bacterias are working. In grain backset lactic infetions would be very likely, because backset contains starch. If there are simple sugars (for example because of a high OG, if the yeast was not able to consume all the sugars), a wild yeast would start and then acetic bacterias probably. If there is alcohol (because you stopped the stripping way too early) acetic bacterias would start. If there are bubbles on the pellicle, it's CO² from a yeast, not a footprint of a bacteria.

If it's pure molasses dunder, you should dilute it 1:1. If less than half of the sugars is from molasses, you don't need to dilute.

PH 5.5 would be optimal. Dunder is much more acidic without a pH riser like calcium hydroxide. You need an electronic pH meter or you will probably fail to get the right pH. If the pH gets low the infection will slow down and the pellicle will drop down. If the pH is too high, the dunder will smell soon like a carcass. And in this case it will not form fine esters unfortunately. Sweat, vomit, cheese, vinegar, those flavors develop esters. Rotten flesh doesn't.

[distiller_dresden]

PH was 4.4 when I tested it 3 weeks ago... I have a $25 one, not the best but works for now I guess. This was from a wash that was 1 gallon hq molasses and 4lbs brown sugar plus 5 gallons distilled water (I was learning, it was early, and I thought I needed 'distilled' water). I think it's not very 'dense', and I had cooked it down until I was getting 40 proof then into steam because my last jar got milky with water in it. So there is little if any alcohol in there. I was wondering if it could be yeast, but also thought it might be too early to tell. Would yeast have the sour fruit smell though?

The rest of this dunder was saved 1.5 gallons in sterilized jars as hot as possible so they sealed themselves. The remainder of the wash liquid was either distilled or was trub on the bottom that was washed and rinsed. I wish I'd saved it, but again, I was learning and didn't know then what I know now. I could've saved the yeast, even though it was from a turbo, it at least could've been killed and used as dead yeast nutrient to feed future mashes...

[der wo]

So you don't need to dilute. But get the pH up. Potassium bicarb, soda, natron or calcium hydroxide for example. What I see on the pic is not the product of normal yeast. Either it's a weird yeast strain or (more likely) bacteria.

[distiller_dresden]

Hey der wo, I'm going to up my PH tomorrow (today for me, technically, but when I wake up after bed). What's the best method, using potassium bicarb. Should I just kind of nudge the slight pellicle head I have going to the side so as not to disturb what's already started?

I'm also planning on introducing some other infectious agents; I was going to use like a toothpick or teaspoon tip of live active locally bought yogurt, and a sliver of parmesan cheese.

I saw this from BadMo on things in dunder pits:
Clostridium butyricum (also called saccharobutyricum) (buy Japanese probiotic pills)
Propionibacterium Freudenreichii (buy cheese culture or emmentaler)
Lactobacillus fermentum (sourdough?)
fructivorans (beer and wine?)
hilgardii (wine, dairy)

And from some Google I think the yogurt and cheese can possibly get me all but hilgardii

[der wo]

In my experience a pellicle forms very fast again. At least under perfect circumstances. But anyway I would try to move it carefully aside and then stir in the pH riser.

I haven't ever used potass bicarb. Can't tell you something about the expected needed amounts.

I would use a cheese with holes. Like Emmentaler for example. Cheese holes are produced by propionic bacterias. And when you google Rum and propionic, you will find some mouth watering writings.
But how get the Swiss the propionic bacterias traditionally into their cheese? By straw dust. They found out it comes from the straw dust, which is all over the place when you have a cow farm. So at least if you buy some artisanal Emmentaler, they simply put straw dust into the milk. Industrial Emmentaler is made with clean propionic and lactic cultures.
For clostridia the simplest source is soil. Of course it's not a source of one specific type of one bacteria, you will find many things in there.

Lactic bacterias are on everything what contains much starch (or lactose). Grain for example. But if you already add cheese, you don't need it. But it's not wrong to add a complex as possible mix of sources.

[distiller_dresden]

Here's my dunder infection now, after getting PH up to 5.4. Looks interesting; smells fruity, and apple cidery, and brown sugar that's a bit burnt and wrong. That's the only way to describe the smell flora...

[distiller_dresden]

Hey anyone, der wo?? Would penicillin be a good infection in a dunder pit? I have some oranges with mold/penicillin growing (when oranges get that way it's always penicillin, right?) and I am going to throw them out. I thought, HMMMMM, maybe that's an infection I need to introduce into my dunder...

Anybody know??

I also just added some things I hope to infect my dunder. A bit of swiss cheese, a bit of parmesan, and a bit of live active culture yogurt from a local dairy farm. I only added about a BB size of each, hoping that's enough to introduce the infection/bacteria. Anybody know? (common question for me I spose)

[der wo]

Penicillin is antibiotic, it will kill other bacterias. I don't know, what it does else. But it doesn't sound promising for me.

Normally very small amounts should be ok. But of course small amounts need longer and give other bacterias opportunities.

[Birrofilo]

I don't think that the mould on oranges is penicillin. It's just disgusting green mould.
That said, it's something I woudn't touch with a barge pole. Moulds produce toxins and I wouldn't propagate them unless I know what contribution they might give to it.

I suppose the dunder which rum lovers want should create a pellicle which is a SCOBY, a symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast, that can find a variable equilibrium between them (different temperatures or different acidity or salinity will create different proportions in the composition of the SCOBY) and that can be easily reproduced from a vessel to another. Something like kefir or kombucha. Ultimately it must smell somehow acceptably good or not revolting, or there is obviously a problem. Trust your nose.

I would only make experiments by putting good stuff in the dunder: cheese, Sauercrauts, kombucha, kefir, things that you know will not produce micotoxins. If you want green moulds, put some Gorgonzola in the dunder. Cheese moulds are not all created equal or equally innocuous.

[distiller_dresden]

My dunder smells wonderfully fruity and funky; it's like pineapple/pear heavy juicy fruit gum with kind of gone wrong, and by wrong I don't mean rotten, I mean like Luke to the dark side, or Venom anit-hero or Wolverine is deep down good but he is a bastard, but anyway - dark brown sugar gone totally WRONG and loving it. That's the bouquet of my dunder at the moment. I didn't want to add so much of the cheeses and yogurt that I had something rotting at the bottom of my dunder... So I just went with a BB sized bit of each. Would the bacteria just eat the bits of what I add, or will I have something rotting? My PH has settled itself out to a final 5.6 in there now, after a week or so now when I brought it up. I definitely have a pellicle, and I would say there's a symbiosis going on. I don't know what other bacteria I have, but if there's yeast I think it's Kahm yeast which I've been reading about and looking at pictures of quite a bit.

[Birrofilo]

I definitely have a pellicle, and I would say there's a symbiosis going on. I don't know what other bacteria I have, but if there's yeast I think it's Kahm yeast which I've been reading about and looking at pictures of quite a bit.

Don't throw the pellicle away.

If you like the final result, the pellicle (your SCOBY) will allow you to reproduce the mash exactly. Just create a wash with the same raw materials and put the pellicle on it. Given the same temperatures, it should make the same kind of fermentation.
You case is a bit complicated by the acidity correction you did, but the pellicle will assist you greatly in obtaining a liquid very similar to the one in which the pellicle was created first.
So if you get a good dunder, you can go on for ever.

Traditional rum producers certainly do the same. They use wooden barrels which are infected with all the family of yeast and bacteria, and by creating a new dunder in the same barrel they will immediately re-inoculate the dunder with the previous microbial community.

Barrels which do not give good rum are discarded, barrels which give good rum are re-used again and again. This helps repeatibility a lot.

Preserve a quantity of the pellicle in the fridge with some nutrients (some raw material) in a glass jar in the fridge, or even frozen, so that you have it ready when you need it.

[Shine0n]

Glad to see you on the funk train DD, I tossed in a few potatoes from the garden with soil intact. The pellicle was full coverage of the top within 18 hours and has been aging for 1 year.
When the weather warmed up the pellicle returned without assistance and is at 20 gallons deep.

I did have to toss a couple 5 gal buckets that were pretty good too, Swiss cheese culture, yogurt culture and crushed malted barley, all which I expect to have the same lacto infection and had very similar tastes in the final spirit. It got to the point where the maggots were almost too hard to sift thru and a mould I couldn't describe was present sooo out it went.

I still have 20 gal of the good stuff to play with and plan to use and replenish it throughout the next few months, then back to aging for another season.

When I see you at S3:18 you'll be one of the first I give a drink to, hope to see you there

[distiller_dresden]

Hey, I'm excited to be here, though my first chance to hop on when I get my rum back and going again maybe it'll freak me out. I was trying to figure out if I was going to get sulfuric acid, I don't know how though or if I even can, or if I can if I CAN. I was on Amazon and thinking about it in my head and it was kind of freaking me out. I might just have to stick to infected dunder. Do you use sulfuric acid ShineOn? I know der wo and Otis are all bout it and don't seem to have any issues at all, but when I was searching - first I'm not sure I can legally buy it in IN - I was faced with the idea that maybe I can't do it. I may have a 'f' factor bred into me through decades of respect for science, being a high school science lab geek... I don't know if I can work with SA even if I had a lab setting.

I, too, hope to see you at the gatherin', I know bein' the new kid that it's not totally up to me and it's all space dependent atm as I understand it. I'm sure hoping and fingers crossed though because I want to meet up there so I can try everyone's shine and get some first real expert opinions on my own.

[distiller_dresden]

Does my dunder need to be totally 'open'? I have a piece of foil loosely over my bucket and it looks like the white yeasty thing has 'backed off' but the pellicle has thickened, and the brown sugary/pineappley/soury smell has gotten really really deep and rich with the foil covering. Should I leave it completely uncovered?? I like the smell a lot, just, I don't know... I guess I'm in no hurry to get one of those ramen noodle looking things because looking at those photos almost makes me gag and vomit, even though I know it's 'good'. I'm glad I got whatever going I do, I don't think I could handle one of those noodley infections, or crazy green mold, or like ShineOn said with maggots and such... Nopenopenope I wouldn't be able to do it, that's why it's inside, if there were inches of maggots to dig through there's no gd fing way I could do this.

[jonnys_spirit]

Maggots are just organic material right?

Cheers,
-j