Will I find the specific flavours of a yeast strain back in my final product?

[Fredistiller]

Hi,

Until now I have sticked to "tried and true" recipes with baker yeast and EC-1118. I played with different kind of wood and toasting.
Now I would like to explore the flavours imparted from the yeasts. I read that yeast have a (big) influence on the final product.
Also I just tried a "Hookrum" and did 3 stripping runs with the same ingredients and (almost) the same temp but with 3 different yeasts, and I really can smell a difference in each jar.

When I read the description of a particular yeast, it explains which flavours the yeast would give to your beer or wine (fruity, nutty,..).
So I'm asking myself:" Will I find the specific flavours of a yeast back in my final product?"

(that my brewshop gives 10%discount on all the Lalvin yeast has NOTHING to do with my question )

Fred.

[Tummydoc]

Would imagine so Fred, but let us know. You've already started the experiment!

[seabass]

Yeasts with strong character make a huge difference in your final product. I'm curious about your results with different yeasts that I assume have more subtle differences.

What yeasts are you using?

[8Ball]

I switched from bakers yeast to FermPro 921 yeast with my panela and blackstrap rum. For me, the flavor profile is fantastic. So yea, yeasts do make a difference in the final flavor. Welcome to the rabbit hole!!

[still_stirrin]

Esters in the ferment affect the taste of the beer in a big way. But, when you run that beer through the still, the flavors that come over to your collection jar may/can be quite different. It all depends on what the congeners are and how/when they progress to the product condenser. But, if you don’t make the esters in the fermenter, they certainly won’t be in your product. So, experimenting with different yeasts and fermentation protocols can give you a new-found product for your pleasure.

Try it. You may find you like it. Keep records so you can replicate it in the future.
ss

[StillerBoy]

So, experimenting with different yeasts and fermentation protocols can give you a new-found product for your pleasure.

That where this hobby is the enjoyable.. experimenting with different yeast and fermenting process/method is really interesting.. especially once you get a good results that can be replicated..

If only more member would develop an understanding of how important fermenting process / method are, their results would greatly improve... distillation is secondary to fermentation in importance for me..

Mars

[tombombadil]

I have brewed a lot of beer, a whole lot of beer. And a lot of Belgians. I enjoy the flavor profile that I get from Belgian beer yeast. I decided to use one in my korn likker. The flavor came through but very subtle. Just a hint in the finish. Nothing compared to the impact that it has in beer. Better than neutral, and worth using, but not what I expected.

However, I followed my normal beer process. Chill wort to 55f, pitch yeast, let it rise to 75f over a few days.

Currently I've got some high rye bourbon going at 80f the whole way through. Maybe that will make a difference?

[Fredistiller]

Yeasts with strong character make a huge difference in your final product. I'm curious about your results with different yeasts that I assume have more subtle differences.

What yeasts are you using?

It's my first rum actually. I waited until I felt confident enough because molasses are quite expensive here.
1-fermentation: EC-1118.
2-fermentation: Baker yeast.
3-fermentation: Baker yeast 2nd generation.
4-fermentation: Kitzinger Universal (Arauner) still bubbling but the batch smells fantastic.

[Fredistiller]

Esters in the ferment affect the taste of the beer in a big way. But, when you run that beer through the still, the flavors that come over to your collection jar may/can be quite different. It all depends on what the congeners are and how/when they progress to the product condenser. But, if you don’t make the esters in the fermenter, they certainly won’t be in your product. So, experimenting with different yeasts and fermentation protocols can give you a new-found product for your pleasure.

Try it. You may find you like it. Keep records so you can replicate it in the future.
ss

Thanks for this perfectly clear answer!
Can you explain a little more what you mean with fermentation protocol? Roughly I give as much O² as possible, give nutrients to keep the yeast happy, pitch under 30°C, keep at approx 20-25°C (1st floor in winter-basement in summer ), wait until dry and run.
About keeping records, I made myself a Excel file where I write everything down. I've learned a lot doing that.

[Fredistiller]

If only more member would develop an understanding of how important fermenting process / method are, their results would greatly improve... distillation is secondary to fermentation in importance for me..

Mars

I come more and more to the same conclusion

[Fredistiller]

For this first rum I bought Ph paper and started to read Ph too. Would Ph infuence the yeast imparted flavours or would it rather prevent bad smells?
Do you guys read/correct Ph during fermentation? I'm always afraid to open my vessel...
Honestly I need to read and learn a lot on that subject, so sorry if this is spoon feeding.

[StillerBoy]

For this first rum I bought Ph paper and started to read Ph too. Would Ph infuence the yeast imparted flavours or would it rather prevent bad smells?
Do you guys read/correct Ph during fermentation? I'm always afraid to open my vessel...

Maintaining a stable Ph during fermentation is an important part of fermenting.. the Ph will, depending on what type of wash / mash that is being done as all has their own behavior activity..

A sugar wash will crash within 8 hrs after pitching, and there's some variables as to the size of a batch.. 20 gal or less crash rapidly.. 20 gal and up crash a little slower but do crash..

An all grain will need a Ph adjustment but not to the extend of a sugar wash..

No need to be afraid to open the fermenter.. the lid / closer is mainly to keep the bugs out.. and we are not making a drinkable liquid, it's about making a liquid to exact the alcohol from..

Mars

[StillerBoy]

Would Ph infuence the yeast imparted flavours or would it rather prevent bad smells?

A bad smelling ferment, in my view, is mostly associated with temperature than PH, especially fermenting on the high side of the preferred yeast temp range..

A stable fermenting temp is very important for the yeast being used.. unstable or varying temp during fermentation will cause issues..

Mars

[seabass]

A bad smelling ferment is more likely due to nasty infection.

Out if curiosity, has anyone done a sugar wash with boiling water to sterilize the wash before pitching yeast? How much of the pH crash is due to lacto activity? I'm not saying it would necessarily have a positive effect on the final product with a sugar wash, but it definitely changes the product. There's a large difference in flavor between a single malt with and without lacto. They are different but neither is bad. Just different end goals.

In my experience, mashing AG at the higher end of beta amylase activity without denaturing it will give you less lacto activity and not require a pH adjustment. Mash at 145 and you'll have lots of active lacto from the grain surviving. Raise that to 155 and you're killing much more off. Boiling it will get rid of all lacto in your wash and not have any pH issues at all.

[The Baker]

I THINK that boiled water is unsuitable for a healthy yeast ferment.
No or little oxygen for the initial stage of fermentation.
And if that is the case you would need to introduce oxygen and you might do that by introducing air (by agitation probably)
and if you do that you risk introducing things you tried to avoid by the sterilisation of the water.
I think.
Anyway you scientific people will know.

Geoff

[seabass]

Could use o2 and a carbonation stone. That's how I do it with AG.

[Fredistiller]

Thanks for the help everyone!

[Fredistiller]

I come back with the results. I used ec-1118, for the 1st strip, baker yeast for the 2nd and 3rd (and on 2 generations). At last the wine yeast Arauner kitzinger reinhefe universal for my 4th strip run.

It was my first rum, so I was a bit lost for my cuts/blending. But I took a lot of diluted samples and worked very carefully to determine my final product. I'm quite happy with the results, the 40% white rum has fruity notes with a pleasant nose of red fruit and an apricot after taste. The molasses are present but it's not overwhelming, so it's quite balanced. I'm very curious about the ageing process.

[Ben]

A few notes on this, I am not much of a distiller yet but I have been brewing beer for a long while.

What is a "bad smelling ferment"? A lot of yeast throw sulfides, specifically lager yeasts which tend to leave some of the cleanest tasting beers around. With these you ramp the temperatures up near the end of the ferment to allow the yeast to run through and clean up after themselves. Some wine yeasts will throw a ton of sulfur as well. Smells like brimstone, tastes like heaven.

We know from the multi-gen UJSSM that the flavor profile changes over time even though the ingredients don't, this is because your getting changes in the yeasts over generations.

The flavors that come through in a yeast are going to be temperature dependent. Take us05 for example, if you ferment it cold (58°, this is cold for an ale) it produces a relatively clean product. If you take it up in temp to high 70°s it starts to throw flavors of peaches and dark pitted fruit. To complicate this the ferment itself generates a lot of heat, in small batch ferments it can be 5-10° above ambient.

You can also intentionally stress the yeast to get it to throw different flavors, under or over pitch is an easy way to do this, you can stress a yeast by having a high starting gravity as well. So in the interest of keeping your tests consistent pitch the same ratio of yeast every time, get your SG as close as possible from batch to batch.

Find one yeast that interests you and start working with it, play with the ferment temps and see where it goes for you. I recommend you ferment clean, clean enough to drink your product straight from the fermenter and taste the product before it goes through the still. The only way your going to know what is coming through is to try it before and after.

You can also start pulling different yeasts from the catalog and try them, keeping all your other variables the same and keep notes. The claim I have read here is that 10% of the flavor of the distillate come from the yeast, doesn't sound like much but that is easily the difference between a good product, and a great one.

The side benefit to keeping the ferment process clean is you can reuse yeast for several generations without developing off flavors.