Mash with ANGEL YEAST

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Demy
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Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:45 am

There are a few posts about this yeast, and I myself am doing tests (with flour) to prove this ingredient. I did some fermentation tests by simply adding water, flour and this yeast without going through the heat of a classic mash but I am not very satisfied with the aroma .. So I wanted to experiment with something very different.
Amylase enzymes are also in the ingredients of this yeast mix, I thought I'd put them to the test. Although I never use enzymes, I thought it might be an asset on occasion, the more you know the better.
IMPORTANT:This is nowhere near scientific proof, mind you, it's just a home test, nothing more. I will illustrate step by step what I have done.Despite having a continuous motorized mixing system that I use for brewers, I intentionally used a very basic approach, treating enzymes a little bit badly.
First test: a direct mix of yeast and flour without doing a pre-gelatinization.
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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:52 am

test iodine at "start of experiment".Don't mind my rustic room, I only use it for this kind of thing.
20201001_145852.jpg
The temperature was slowly raised to mash a temperature and maintained for a few hours but this first approach was not entirely satisfactory, no conversion acceptable.
20201001_145707.jpg

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:55 am

At this point I thought of raising the temperature to gelatinize the starches well, then cool to 65°C and add more Angel yeast.
20201001_160756.jpg
After a few hours' saccharification break (in the meantime I did other things) I did the iodine test again and this time it was positive.
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Last edited by Demy on Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:07 am

Everything was put in the fermenter, added more Angel yeast this time for fermentation. Right now it's gurgling like a train ...
20201001_225620.jpg
Moral of the story: this yeast could be used as an alternative to just specific enzymes in case of need.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by jonnys_spirit » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:21 am

Looks good Demy! I'm pretty sure the koji enzymes in the likker starter angel yeast will be denatured at regular mash temps but I could be wrong. Your experiment would suggest this is the case?

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:37 am

jonnys_spirit wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:21 am
Looks good Demy! I'm pretty sure the koji enzymes in the likker starter angel yeast will be denatured at regular mash temps but I could be wrong. Your experiment would suggest this is the case?

Cheers,
jonny
The enzymes of the amylase group (in the ingredients there are both alpha and beta, it seems to me) are not denatured otherwise there would have been no conversion in the 2nd test but rather that it takes a pre-gelatinization of the starches for them to work better. There are also aspergillus but I don't know what effect the heat will have on them, I think they denature with heat.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by jonnys_spirit » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:24 am

Ahhh gotcha my bad - I've been studying koji recently and picked up a bread proofer to culture my own for both cooking and fermenting/conversion. I guess it's the culture temp that is more critical depending on whether you mean to ferment starches or proteins and yes I believe the Angel yeast has cultures other than standard Koji but there are several types and some more suited for fermentation / conversion depending on the product you might want to make.

Cheers!
-jonny
————
i make stuff i break stuff
water into whiskey into water
just getting started in home distilling - been drinking for decades
16g copper pot still, 10l alembic, and a column or two
————

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:08 pm

jonnys_spirit wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:24 am
Ahhh gotcha my bad - I've been studying koji recently and picked up a bread proofer to culture my own for both cooking and fermenting/conversion. I guess it's the culture temp that is more critical depending on whether you mean to ferment starches or proteins and yes I believe the Angel yeast has cultures other than standard Koji but there are several types and some more suited for fermentation / conversion depending on the product you might want to make.

Cheers!
-jonny
here is a small abstract where we talk about the optimal temperature of aspergillus, I think 55 ° C is the most favorable https://www.bartleby.com/essay/The-Effe ... P6J4LCPL95

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:19 pm

Have you tried following the instructions?

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:42 pm

NZChris wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:19 pm
Have you tried following the instructions?
Do you mean the package instructions? I only made one consideration, that is that this mix of yeasts from what I read in the package contains amylase so I have brought to mash temperatures to understand if you can exploit the enzymatic power in a mash. If I misunderstood tell me.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by jonnys_spirit » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:56 pm

Instructions are like recipes - Parameters or maybe even suggested guidelines to adjust and experiment and learn with if you're comfortable doing it that way - no big hurry. I've got a book on "Koji" that goes pretty deep and there's tons of additional info out there that support various protocols on the various cultures and flavor outcomes. More than one way to skin this one and more than one type of Koji that have been used in these applications for a quite a while! Very interesting and diverse. I've got a couple bags of the "Starter of Liquor Making" Angel yeast in the fridge but haven't opened yet - I have made some Sake's though with other Koji cultures and yeasts.

Cheers!
-jonny
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water into whiskey into water
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16g copper pot still, 10l alembic, and a column or two
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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:17 pm

These instructions. https://angelyeast.en.alibaba.com/produ ... Grain.html
Application:
Application of raw materials (calculated as 100kg of flour grain)
Mix the material with 250-300kg of hot water, directly add 0.5-0.8kg of Angel leaven after the temperature is naturally cooled to about 90°F(32℃) (appropriately mix to prevent from sedimentation during this period), evenly mix, and ferment for 8-15 days. Mix twice every day in the first three days, control the temperature to be 82°F-97 °F(28-36℃), the optimal fermentation temperature to be about 90°F(32℃), in the short period, the highest fermentation temperature shall not be over 100°F(38℃), and the heat insulation measure shall be taken when the temperature is below 79°F(26℃).

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:40 pm

NZChris wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:17 pm
These instructions. https://angelyeast.en.alibaba.com/produ ... Grain.html
Application:
Application of raw materials (calculated as 100kg of flour grain)
Mix the material with 250-300kg of hot water, directly add 0.5-0.8kg of Angel leaven after the temperature is naturally cooled to about 90°F(32℃) (appropriately mix to prevent from sedimentation during this period), evenly mix, and ferment for 8-15 days. Mix twice every day in the first three days, control the temperature to be 82°F-97 °F(28-36℃), the optimal fermentation temperature to be about 90°F(32℃), in the short period, the highest fermentation temperature shall not be over 100°F(38℃), and the heat insulation measure shall be taken when the temperature is below 79°F(26℃).
I know those instructions but something different is being done here. If I followed those instructions and opened a post, maybe it wouldn't make sense to post.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Clamsmasha » Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:23 pm

Demy wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:08 pm
jonnys_spirit wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:24 am
Ahhh gotcha my bad - I've been studying koji recently and picked up a bread proofer to culture my own for both cooking and fermenting/conversion. I guess it's the culture temp that is more critical depending on whether you mean to ferment starches or proteins and yes I believe the Angel yeast has cultures other than standard Koji but there are several types and some more suited for fermentation / conversion depending on the product you might want to make.

Cheers!
-jonny
here is a small abstract where we talk about the optimal temperature of aspergillus, I think 55 ° C is the most favorable https://www.bartleby.com/essay/The-Effe ... P6J4LCPL95
Hi Demy,

The actor in this stuff Isn’t Aspergillus, it’s Rhizopus.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by zapata » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:28 pm

Can it be cultured? (easily) Instead of buying all the time, maybe keep it as sour dough starter kind of thing, pitch with baking yeast if presumably the Rhizopus and yeast cultures wouldn't stay ballanced?

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Clamsmasha » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:08 pm

I’ve been reading around on this a bit and it seems pretty easy to dry and store. You can start off the trub too. The difference is that the added enzymes would not be replaced though It seems that these moulds make their own amylase...

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by NZChris » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:29 pm

Demy wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:40 pm
I know those instructions but something different is being done here. If I followed those instructions and opened a post, maybe it wouldn't make sense to post.
I'm not trying to derail your thread by discussing the results of using Angel's recommended instructions, I'm just asking if you have tried using them? Yes/no/sort of?

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:50 am

NZChris wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:29 pm
Demy wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:40 pm
I know those instructions but something different is being done here. If I followed those instructions and opened a post, maybe it wouldn't make sense to post.
I'm not trying to derail your thread by discussing the results of using Angel's recommended instructions, I'm just asking if you have tried using them? Yes/no/sort of?
Yes of course, I specified at the beginning of the post that I used the yeast in the "normal" way without mash and I am not satisfied with the aroma or the ferment or the distillate. Then I did this test but it is not based on fermentation but on the use of yeast to exploit the enzymes inside it. A big hello!

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:54 am

Clamsmasha wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:08 pm
I’ve been reading around on this a bit and it seems pretty easy to dry and store. You can start off the trub too. The difference is that the added enzymes would not be replaced though It seems that these moulds make their own amylase...
I think the same thing, if you only need yeasts / molds, cultivation is fine but the added enzymes (amylase) will be lost.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:01 am

Clamsmasha wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:23 pm
Demy wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:08 pm
jonnys_spirit wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:24 am
Ahhh gotcha my bad - I've been studying koji recently and picked up a bread proofer to culture my own for both cooking and fermenting/conversion. I guess it's the culture temp that is more critical depending on whether you mean to ferment starches or proteins and yes I believe the Angel yeast has cultures other than standard Koji but there are several types and some more suited for fermentation / conversion depending on the product you might want to make.

Cheers!
-jonny
here is a small abstract where we talk about the optimal temperature of aspergillus, I think 55 ° C is the most favorable https://www.bartleby.com/essay/The-Effe ... P6J4LCPL95
Hi Demy,

The actor in this stuff Isn’t Aspergillus, it’s Rhizopus.
Hi, if you talk about the link article it seems to be aspergillus oryzoe if I am not misunderstood.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Clamsmasha » Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:05 am

Demy wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:01 am
Clamsmasha wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:23 pm
Demy wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:08 pm
jonnys_spirit wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:24 am
Ahhh gotcha my bad - I've been studying koji recently and picked up a bread proofer to culture my own for both cooking and fermenting/conversion. I guess it's the culture temp that is more critical depending on whether you mean to ferment starches or proteins and yes I believe the Angel yeast has cultures other than standard Koji but there are several types and some more suited for fermentation / conversion depending on the product you might want to make.

Cheers!
-jonny

here is a small abstract where we talk about the optimal temperature of aspergillus, I think 55 ° C is the most favorable https://www.bartleby.com/essay/The-Effe ... P6J4LCPL95
Hi Demy,

The actor in this stuff Isn’t Aspergillus, it’s Rhizopus.
Hi, if you talk about the link article it seems to be aspergillus oryzoe if I am not misunderstood.
Hey man,
Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick but I thought you were saying the angel bug is A. Oryzae in post 6.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by HomerD » Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:49 am

Rhizopus oryzae is in the angel liquor making product. Koji is Aspergillus.
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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by NZChris » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:05 pm

Demy wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:50 am
NZChris wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:29 pm
Demy wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:40 pm
I know those instructions but something different is being done here. If I followed those instructions and opened a post, maybe it wouldn't make sense to post.
I'm not trying to derail your thread by discussing the results of using Angel's recommended instructions, I'm just asking if you have tried using them? Yes/no/sort of?
Yes of course, I specified at the beginning of the post that I used the yeast in the "normal" way without mash and I am not satisfied with the aroma or the ferment or the distillate. Then I did this test but it is not based on fermentation but on the use of yeast to exploit the enzymes inside it. A big hello!
I read your description in the first post but that didn't sound like you had followed the instructions, hence my query. If you hadn't followed the instructions, that might explain why you weren't happy with the results and are wanting to experiment with other ways of using it. I've been happy with three out of four ferments, one got a nasty infection, but that was probably my fault.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:59 am

NZChris wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:05 pm
Demy wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:50 am
NZChris wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:29 pm
Demy wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:40 pm
I know those instructions but something different is being done here. If I followed those instructions and opened a post, maybe it wouldn't make sense to post.
I'm not trying to derail your thread by discussing the results of using Angel's recommended instructions, I'm just asking if you have tried using them? Yes/no/sort of?
Yes of course, I specified at the beginning of the post that I used the yeast in the "normal" way without mash and I am not satisfied with the aroma or the ferment or the distillate. Then I did this test but it is not based on fermentation but on the use of yeast to exploit the enzymes inside it. A big hello!
I read your description in the first post but that didn't sound like you had followed the instructions, hence my query. If you hadn't followed the instructions, that might explain why you weren't happy with the results and are wanting to experiment with other ways of using it. I've been happy with three out of four ferments, one got a nasty infection, but that was probably my fault.
Hi, I wanted to try this mash thing regardless of fermentation, the purpose is just to test enzymes for conversion in a typical temperature range of a mash. The normal use of this yeast remains a good option, in a barley mash it worked even if then it seems to me that the yield was lower than a traditional mash but I have no data in hand, I go to memory. In any case, I am convinced that a pre-cooking (and consequent gelatinization) is better than the simple addition of hot water (I imagine a partial gelatinization) as per instructions. I think the instructions are meant to make the buyer waste as little time as possible. In general it is a good product. A big hello!

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by NZChris » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:58 pm

The language barrier has got me stumped. :( I can't work out from your grammar if you have tried following Angel's instructions or not, or even if you know what they are.

The instructions that I found are quite difficult to understand as they haven't been translated to English by a native English speaker who knows how to use their product.

The thing is, if you haven't actually tried Angel's protocol, it might not be as unsuccessful as you think it is and you may be better off following their protocol rather than trying to invent a new method, especially one that deactivates and/or kills some of the ingredients.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:26 am

NZChris wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:58 pm
The language barrier has got me stumped. :( I can't work out from your grammar if you have tried following Angel's instructions or not, or even if you know what they are.

The instructions that I found are quite difficult to understand as they haven't been translated to English by a native English speaker who knows how to use their product.

The thing is, if you haven't actually tried Angel's protocol, it might not be as unsuccessful as you think it is and you may be better off following their protocol rather than trying to invent a new method, especially one that deactivates and/or kills some of the ingredients.
I'm sorry for my bad inglish, I have said in many posts that my English is bad, I try to do what I can.
The instructions say add hot water, wait for it to cool to an ideal temperature for this yeast and put in the yeast, the rest we know. I have tried these instructions and in general they are fine but the yield (in alcohol) is lower than a classic mash. My experiment is not about this but I asked myself: ok, in the instructions there is amylase, could I use this yeast to make a traditional mash using these enzymes? I know very well that some ingredients will be destroyed at this stage but this was expected. This would be a great alternative for anyone who uses "synthetic" amylase enzymes and wants to make a traditional mash. I added that in my opinion a pre-cooking of any cereal is better in my opinion than adding only water as per instructions, regardless of how we want to use this yeast, at least this is my experience. I'm sorry about the long writing, if I expressed myself wrong in something tell me.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Grappa-Gringo » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:21 am

I'm arriving a bit late to the party...sorry.... Is everyone buying Angel Yeast via Alibaba or is there a distributor in North America?
thanks
GG
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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by HomerD » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:45 am

I got mine from Alibaba. I haven’t found any in North America.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by NZChris » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:15 am

Grappa-Gringo wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:21 am
I'm arriving a bit late to the party...sorry.... Is everyone buying Angel Yeast via Alibaba or is there a distributor in North America?
thanks
GG
Don't get caught out. The one you need for this is called Angel Starter of Liquor Making.

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Re: Mash with ANGEL YEAST

Post by Demy » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:46 am

I bought mine from aliexpress. As far as I know, alibaba is almost only for large quantities (eg resellers) even if they are part of the same "group". Where I live it is almost impossible to find even yeast for hombrewing ... I am obliged to buy these things online.

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