Turbo Yeast Cell Counts

[tpklieb]

Hey all, new to the forum, but been a long time home brewer, just got into the stillin game for about a year now. Learned a lot from reading all the posts here, very helpful. Because of this, I thought I might throw my hat in the ring and provide some missing info and maybe start a discussion on effective ways to use turbo yeast, if anyone else knows about different turbo yeast cell counts, what have you. *Disclaimer: I know turbo yeast is not the preferred yeast for fermentation on the forums here but I do think it has it's place in the distillers toolbox. I think it's very useful in a sugar wash but maybe not great for a whiskey mash for example. Therefore, people should know all they can about it.*

The thing I haven't been able to find anywhere is how much yeast is actually in a pouch of turbo yeast. Any other yeast type the manufacture has a data sheet with the cell count per ml or some equivalent listed somewhere. Short of doing a cell count on it myself, I decided to just do some math in reverse to get a rough idea.

Some info from the pouch: it says the pouch is 250 grams (varies depending on the type of turbo or the company etc), contains yeast, nutrient and other ingredients. So from that info, I know that not all 250 grams is yeast. The particular yeast I'm looking at is the '24 hour' ferment that can do up to 13% abv for a 6.6 U.S. Gallon batch. For my math, I'm just going to say a nice tidy 5.5 gal. And to get the 13% lets say we are starting with a gravity of 1.093 and a final of 0.996

Here is the equation for determining the correct amount of yeast to use per your batch:
Yeast cells = (your batch size in ml) * (Degrees plato) * (1,000,000 (standard pitch rate per ml))

So working backwards, our batch size is 6.5gal * 3785 = 24,602.5 Degrees plato - the quick and dirty way is to take your OG points, in this case 93, and divide by 4. There are also online calculators, but it's good to know in a pinch. So this gives us 23.25P

If we plug it in, we get 24,602.5ml * 23.25P * 1,000,000 = 572,000,000,000 or 5.72x10^11 or 572 billion cells per pouch.

For reference, an 11g pack of US-05 has about 66B cells and a Wyeast or white labs liquid pitch have around 100B. The other, probably more reliable way to calculate the pitch is to guess as to how much nutrient is in the pouch and subtract that from the total amount and use the 6B cells per gram to find the total. After a quick google search, if there is .5g of DAP per gal and another nutrient, say fermaid K, at 1.5g per gal, that's a total of 13 grams. From 250g, that brings us to 237g and 1.42trillion cells. You could also say that since a 66B pouch is used for one 5 gal batch of about 1.048, the pitch rate there is ~290,000c/ml which if you plug into our example equation gives you 166 billion cells.

That's quite a range from 166B to 1.42T. And the down side is these numbers are all based on assumptions of pitch rate, nutrient levels, degrees plato and more. So probably best to just go with the median of 572 billion till there are actual hard numbers from a cell count from someone.

I apologize for the math lesson, but I hope this is useful information to someone. If I made an incorrect assumption or did the math wrong or something else isn't correct or I missed something, please post a correction. If you use a different turbo yeast, say the '48 hour' pouch or if you've actually diluted the pouch and done a cell count, let me know!

[Expat]

I think it's very useful in a sugar wash but maybe not great for a whiskey mash for example.

From a consumption perspective its really not. You end up with a crappy product because the yeast are stressed.

Best use for turbo is filling rack space at the home brew store; and it should stay there.

[Saltbush Bill]

Would you use Turdbo or another inferior yeast in your beer brewing activities?

[tpklieb]

Would you use Turdbo or another inferior yeast in your beer brewing activities?

I have made a seltzer with it and it turned out pretty nice actually. Then, based on that success, used it as a vodka base. The key to using it and having a decent product is to make sure you're looking out for their health, just like any other fermentation. The biggest issue I've seen come from turbo yeast is that if you under pitch or don't use enough nutrient, it'll put out a ton of eggy, sulfur aroma.

I can't speak for everyone who has used turbo yeast and had a bad experience with it, but when my 'products' have not turned out, its because of something I did wrong, either low pitch rate, not inverting the sugar first, not enough nutrient, letting it ferment way to hot, or trying to get way to much alcohol out of it, etc. If it's being used to try to make something on the cheap, then those using it to that end will get something that tastes cheap, I agree. But I think if you give it the proper nutrients and the best environment possible, it'll do just fine.

Saltbush, I think my question to you is what makes it inferior yeast?

[tpklieb]

I think it's very useful in a sugar wash but maybe not great for a whiskey mash for example.

From a consumption perspective its really not. You end up with a crappy product because the yeast are stressed.

Do you mean because it's being used in a sugar wash or something more inherent about how people use turbo yeast? Maybe both?

[CopperFiend]

I think it's most commonly due to the intended use. People use it for hard and fast ferments (extremely stressful for the poor little yeasts). I've used it before and had decent results making neutral or sacrificial alc to clean the still but would never use it for flavoured spirits.

[seabass]

Use the best yeast for your intended use. What are you making? Why would you want to use turbo yeast? You have homebrew experience, so why do you want to use turbo yeast?

[Saltbush Bill]

I think my question to you is what makes it inferior yeast?

My own experiences with it , the experiences that many thousands of others have had on numerous forums when they used it.
It's not just this forum that does not encourage its use, all distilling forums that I am aware of hold similar views.
The only people who seem to recommend its use are the manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers who make money from flogging the stuff ......they make those sales to a second group who use it .......unsuspecting newbies, who don't know what they don't know yet.

[Expat]

I think it's very useful in a sugar wash but maybe not great for a whiskey mash for example.

From a consumption perspective its really not. You end up with a crappy product because the yeast are stressed.

Do you mean because it's being used in a sugar wash or something more inherent about how people use turbo yeast? Maybe both?

Turbo in any capacity. The yeast excess nutrients are designed for speed and high ABV; at the extreme detriment of taste.

Such ferments produce a large amount of byproducts that people then have to try and mitigate.

[MartinCash]

The only people who recommend turbo yeast are the people who sell it and profit from it.

Commercial distilleries don't use them. Experienced amateur distillers who are chasing quality don't use it. Pretty much only people who have had them recommended by the brew shop who sell them use them, until they learn better.

You may get a product you're happy with, and I know a few distillers who have got quite fond of their house flavour. It still tastes off to me. It's designed to make as much alcohol as possible in as little time as possible. If you're chasing quality you stay away from both excessive speed and excessive alcohol. In any case I'd still rather use cheaper bread yeast.

[Yummyrum]

Disclaimer: I know turbo yeast is not the preferred yeast for fermentation on the forums here but I do think it has it's place in the distillers toolbox. I think it's very useful in a sugar wash but maybe not great for a whiskey mash for example. Therefore, people should know all they can about it.*

I think we are all on the same page about the usefulness of Turbos as OP

I thought this was about calculating cell numbers . I still aren’t sure about the theory behind the math , but I think maybe we should forget about Turbo bashing and instead embrace the theory in which the deduction is being made .

[jonnys_spirit]

Well then - How many yeasties fit on n the head of a pin?

[MartinCash]

You could get a haemocytometer and do a cell count.

[NineInchNails]

Why use turbo crap? With Fleischmann's yeast at ideal controlled temp a good sugar wash (using simple syrup) ferments in 3 days, but I leave it until the 4th day when I strip it.

[tpklieb]

Yummyrum & MartinCash, Yes finding out the amount of yeast in a pouch is really what I'm trying to get more info about. Not interested in changing peoples' minds about the stuff, as I mostly agree that it should mostly be avoided. I could do a cell count with a hemocytometer, I just haven't yet and wanted to see if anyone had additional info.
If anyone has an opinion about the way I got to the numbers I did I'd love to hear that. Also planning on getting a cell count going eventually and will post my results here.

[MartinCash]

It's not just turbo manufacturers that don't publish yeast cell counts, so they're not alone in that. My feeling is that, since the exact mixes are proprietary, they might treat the exact proportions as a trade secret.

If you're trying to reverse-engineer the mix, you'll need to know the proportions of all the nutrients and buffers in the pack, not just the yeast. I hate sounding like a broken record, but if you don't mind waiting for 4-5 days instead of 2-3, there are many yeast and nutrient combos that will work just as well.

Also, if you're not trying to replicate a turbo, and are just interested in the numbers, I'd recommend not getting too bogged down in exactitude. Unlike in brewing, where small variations in pitch rate and fermentation temperature profile can have very noticeable effects in flavour, we're a lot more 'bucket-chemistry'-like in distilling.

[tpklieb]

Well, here's an update on the turbo yeast cell counts if anyone is interested. I contacted the company of the yeast being used (Still Spirits) and, unfortunately (maybe unsurprisingly) they did not have general number for how much yeast is in the blend. I was told the dosage could range between 9x10^7 and 1.2X10^8 cells / mL, which means (assuming 5.5 gallons of wash) there is roughly 1.87X10^12 to 2.5X10^12. That's a fairly tight range, but since they gave me a range rather than a generalized number like white labs or wyeast might, I figured I'd still do a cell count. The number I counted was 2.4x10^9 / mL, with the 205g pouch (mixed into 1L of water) containing 2.76x10^12. So its in the range of the numbers they gave me.

These numbers don't match up at all with the the math I did above to try and deduce how much is in the pouch. I think it's safe to say there are close to 2.5 trillion cells per pouch based on what the manufacture said and my cell counts.

My take away and recommendations for use: I've used turbo yeast with good results, but it's been after much trial and error. In the end, if you want a quality product, you shouldn't try to get the absolute most alcohol from fermentation as possible in the shortest amount of time possible. As with any yeast, the more optimal your pitch rate, nutrient, temp control, etc., the better your fermentation and flavors will be. I think using turbo yeast can still give you a good product, but you can't abuse it. Use the equation 1million Cells / degree plato / mL and you'll arrive at a useful pitch rate.