Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

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NZChris
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by NZChris »

Deplorable wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 8:51 am I agree with you Chris. If you want to drink now, pull a jar of hearts from the middle before mixing your oaking blend.
I never steal a middle jar for drinking young or white because they are too tasteless for me. My narrow cut is always a blend from jars chosen for that purpose.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by Deplorable »

NZChris wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:57 am
Deplorable wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 8:51 am I agree with you Chris. If you want to drink now, pull a jar of hearts from the middle before mixing your oaking blend.
I never steal a middle jar for drinking young or white because they are too tasteless for me. My narrow cut is always a blend from jars chosen for that purpose.
My "middle jar" is usually just a tight blend. For instance, on my last spirit run, after selecting all of the jars for the final blend (jars 8-20) I start from the middle adding the jars to the blending pot, when I had added jars 12-16 to the pot, I removed enough to make a full pint jar cut when cut to 45% abv, then added in the rest of the jars selected for the final stock to oak.
To me, Middle Jar is just a term used for the distillers selection of the "heart of hearts". Of course, your definition may be different. We're speaking of the same thing none the less. :wink:
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by NZChris »

The readers are often newbies and are likely to assume that a 'middle jar' is just that. My 'middle jar' doesn't exist as the obvious hearts are run into demijohns and only the 500ml cut jars on either end are used to decide the various cuts I might choose. So yes, we are talking about doing the same thing, but let's not assume that newbies can read between the lines. :D
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by atarijedi »

tl;dr Giving it only a small amount of thinking time. There is nothing off the top of my head that I can think of, that is intrinsic to long-term aging that can't be simulated for an accelerated aging process.

I think the first thing that needs to be determined is, what is long-term aging, and what is rapid aging. I would say, if you can make a spirit, within 1 year, taste like any spirit that is aged in a full size barrel for 3 or more years, than you have done rapid aging. I'm also going to argue that nuclear aging, as is currently practiced by most hobbyists, isn't going to do much but make wood whisky tea. If you then let it sit for a long time, it might change into something more, palatable, but on it's own, it is not that great of a method.

I'm also gonna buck against the grain and state that you should be able to create something that is comparable to even the greatest whiskies, with a combination of rapid aging methods. The only difference between rapid aging, and long term aging, is reaction rates.

You just have to know what is happening, how it is happening, and then provide the right conditions and feedstocks to let it happen, or to stop it from happening. Then add energy to make that thing which is happening, happen faster.

For example:

1. The simpler of the 2, the relative humidity of the environment where a barrel sits is the 3rd biggest determining factor in the loss of ethanol from inside the barrel, the angel share. The biggest would be the physical construction of the barrel, and then the 2nd would be the porosity of the wood chosen. But as to my point, the higher the humidity, the lower the amount of water that will evaporate out, but the higher the amount of ethanol that will evaporate out. Vice versa, the lower the humidity, the more water will evaporate out, and less ethanol will evaporate out.

2. The water/ethanol concentration plays a role. Oxygen is at minimum 5x more soluble in ethanol than it is in water. So a higher concentration of ethanol, means there will be a higher concentration of dissolved oxygen. Oxygen also plays an indirect role in ester creation (oxidation of ethanol to acetaldehyde, oxidation of acetaldehyde to acetic acid, acetic acid + methanol/ethanol/isoamyl-alcohol esterification to methyl/ethyl/isoamyl acetate). So it stands to reason that, all else being equal, a higher barrel proof spirit will have a higher amount of oxygen dissolved in it, and a higher quantity of acetic acid, acetaldehyde, and acetate based esters.

It isn't a huge amount of oxygen that is needed either, I'm talking on the order of 2mL/L/month for the first 2 weeks, then 0.6mL/L/month for the rest of the time, to simulate what is happening inside a full size 250L barrel (aka 66 US gal barrel). Exceedingly small amounts. Might even be possible to introduce it as something other than an O2 molecule, maybe as ozone or an oxidizing agent like hydrogen peroxide.

Add more oxygen, and heat, and these things will happen faster.

There are quite a lot of people looking into rapid aging as a real professional distillery option. To get product out to market quicker. Especially in the Brandy sector. I think I've read 8 studies in the last week, about rapid/accelerated aging or alternative aging, and they all were using brandy, pomace brandy/tsipouro, as the test spirit.

I won't argue that you can make a 20 year Scotch, in a day, using rapid aging. But I think that within the timespan of 1 year, or less, you could make something comparable to a 20 year aged spirit.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by ROD01 »

Totally agree that nothing beats time for properly aged spirits, but nuking does give an indication of future goodness.
Bought a 5 gallon barrel for my next batch to age in - finally doing it right! :thumbup:
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by S-Cackalacky »

Seems that aging whiskey is a relative thing. Takes 3 or 4 times longer to age a barrel of whiskey in Scotland than it does to do the same in Texas. The main difference in the two locations is heat and humidity. So, why isn't it reasonable to think that you can speed up maturation by artificially controlling the parameters?
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by still_stirrin »

S-Cackalacky wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:37 pm Seems that aging whiskey is a relative thing. Takes 3 or 4 times longer to age a barrel of whiskey in Scotland than it does to do the same in Texas. The main difference in the two locations is heat and humidity. So, why isn't it reasonable to think that you can speed up maturation by artificially controlling the parameters?
In Scotland, the producers are taxed on the materials that go into the products/beer. So, waste is minimized. As a result, cuts in the spirit are much looser. More heads goes into the cask, so aging requires more time, and this can be 2 to 3 times as much time.

Relative humidity (temperature and barometric pressure) will affect whether “the angels” sip whisky or water. But certainly, the longer the age in casks, the greater the shrinkage.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by NZChris »

S-Cackalacky wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:37 pm Seems that aging whiskey is a relative thing. Takes 3 or 4 times longer to age a barrel of whiskey in Scotland than it does to do the same in Texas. The main difference in the two locations is heat and humidity. So, why isn't it reasonable to think that you can speed up maturation by artificially controlling the parameters?
It is, so I do. My rum is in a temperature controlled environment so that winter lows don't slow down the aging process, but I wouldn't include that under 'Rapid Aging'.

I've just tasted an experimental kiwifruit brandy that has been held at 152F for 7 days on toasted and charred oak. It has improved and is much more drinkable than as white dog a week ago, (it wasn't that great to begin with). From past experience, I expect it will be even better after a couple of years. One thing that I did learn from the experiment is that the oak/toast/char/amount is about right, so I am confident that I can age the rest with that oak.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by contrahead »

Chucker wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 10:39 am I keep finding that aging with sticks (oak) can be very deceiving if you look at color and early taste on their own. American whisky, I find, has a much deeper color than Irish or scotch and I think this is due to new barrels for most American types while the others are often in used barrels.
I don’t worry about color at all.
You do have a point about new barrels allowing for more pigment to be extracted, by fresh spirits. For example, a Scotch that has been setting fallow for 20 years in a barrel that has already been used four times before; might come out pale or colorless. That reused barrel might also cause the maturation process to take far more time than it should.

When you say “American Whiskey”, which one did you have in mind? There is legaly defined Rye Whiskey, Rye Malt Whiskey, Malt Whiskey, Wheat Whiskey, Bourbon Whiskey and Corn Whiskey. These aforementioned “straight whiskeys” can not be treated with artificial colorings; but American Blended Whiskey, American Blend of Straight Whiskeys, American Light Whiskey and American Spirit Whiskey can (be colored with caramel). “That means any bourbon—regular or “straight” (aged a minimum of two years)—gets its color from the barrel, nothing else”.

Irish and Scotch Whiskys on the other hand can and do make liberal use of E150a (caramel coloring). Canadian whiskey regulations are so lax that beyond coloring, their whiskey might also contain added flavorings.

https://thewhiskeywash.com/whiskey-styl ... -coloring/

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/5.22
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

NZChris wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:55 pm
S-Cackalacky wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:37 pm Seems that aging whiskey is a relative thing. Takes 3 or 4 times longer to age a barrel of whiskey in Scotland than it does to do the same in Texas. The main difference in the two locations is heat and humidity. So, why isn't it reasonable to think that you can speed up maturation by artificially controlling the parameters?
It is, so I do. My rum is in a temperature controlled environment so that winter lows don't slow down the aging process, but I wouldn't include that under 'Rapid Aging'.

I've just tasted an experimental kiwifruit brandy that has been held at 152F for 7 days on toasted and charred oak. It has improved and is much more drinkable than as white dog a week ago, (it wasn't that great to begin with). From past experience, I expect it will be even better after a couple of years. One thing that I did learn from the experiment is that the oak/toast/char/amount is about right, so I am confident that I can age the rest with that oak.
Nice! 152F for seven days on oak. Just wondering whether you do that with the spirit closed tight or with some venting? I'm looking at a thermowell'd one gallon SS vessel in a low wattage water bath kettle for this kind of thing.

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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by NZChris »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:21 am Nice! 152F for seven days on oak. Just wondering whether you do that with the spirit closed tight or with some venting?
It is not tightly sealed and is not under pressure.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by Chucker »

I was referring to American styles in general, where there is more emphasis placed upon new use oak. Perhaps it was too broad a brush to be painting with and is perhaps more accurately thought of as those types in new barrels as opposed to used barrels.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by FL Brewer »

I do a hybrid accelerated/natural aging process. I age in gallon glass jugs with a toasted and charred oak stick about 3/4 x 3/4 x 8 inches at 60% ABV. I do the freezer to sink temp cycle (one day in the freezer, one day in the sink) for about a month or so before the jugs go into the attic. The freezer temp cycling does seem to color the whiskey faster than just leaving out at room temp. After a year its good, after two years excellent, and the couple of jugs I've been able to keep my hands off for three years has been incredible. I do a very conservative heads cut, but then collect into the tails (VM still head) as I like the full flavor.

Sipping the samples after freezer temp cycling compared to the room temp version of the same batch before any more aging (I only did that once) seems like the freezer does speed up the process a bit. That batch never made it to the two or three year on oak points though, so I don't know if the temp cycling makes a difference if you age more than a year.

In my opinion, the temp cycling or whatever acceleration technique you use helps somewhat, maybe gives a bit of a head start, but there is no substitute for years (yes, plural) on oak.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by FL Brewer »

.... and I should add I use the same technique on all my whiskey; single malt on used bourbon oak sticks, bourbon, corn, oat, rice whiskey on new oak.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by HDNB »

i been making so much booze for so long now, there is no choice but to age it naturally.

the thing i have found most interesting is the smell. i keep barrels in a closed up sea can. when i started it smelled oaky in there. then it started smelling boozy. now it smells like paint thinner. (acetone?) but the stuff on the inside of the barrels has become magical...there is definite differences as time goes by from batch to batch.

dunno how you can make that happen without waiting for it.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by Bushman »

Interesting HDNB, I did a distillery tour in Amsterdam a few years ago with Odin. The owner was carrying on a tradition handed down by her parents. When their barrels for aging leaked they patched them and have been using the same barrels for decades. They are making Genever and don’t want any flavor from the barrels just aging process.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by shine_ »

I've tried almost everything discussed here and concluded - if you like what comes out of still, drink it. If you don't - do whatever you want, try some experiments and so on.

I've noticed each rapid aging method will result in something different, but not much difference what spirit goes in. They all will have some oak tea flavor which suppresses original taste. I've made many great grain drinks in few weeks, but still not wasting good white dog anymore.
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Re: Rapid Aging - Opinions on Outcomes?

Post by Avalir »

I recently took up an experiment to not technically rapid age, but rather to slightly accelerate some aspects of the aging process so I could have my current batch in a tasting condition for unexpected holiday guests. Until now, I had always just gone traditional and given it time. My fear was being several weeks from ready when the time came for me to give out samples. As a disclaimer, I'll say I'm only 24 hours into my experiment, so I may later denounce what I say here.
So I took the exact opposite approach than the freezer method that seems to be quite popular. In the area I store my aging jug, room temperature is a constant 65-70F. I ended up creating a warm (not hot) water bath for it in my mash tun. Started the water at 120F and put my aging jug in. Almost immediately I began to hear the wood creaking. So if anyone attempts this, you should probably heat in steps on 10-15 degrees to not get any odd temperature shock effects. I ended up removing the cap several times over 20-30 minutes to relieve pressure buildup (I imagine it's an almost negligible chance that I would burst the jug at this temp, but I worked too hard to take chances). I sampled just before starting and a couple times in this 24 hour span. I will say the sweetness and mouthfeel are currently where I wouldn't have anticipated it for another 2-3 days if it had sat at ambient temperature. It still has the same potency of tanniny qualities as before I started, so I'm assuming those will likely break down at the same rate as usual. So after 24 hours, this method at least appears to have quickened the pace on sweetness and mouthfeel. I also intend to just let the bath in the sealed mash tun slowly drop back down to or close to room temperature (probably at least a 2 day, potentially 3 day process) before I bring the bath back up to 120F to repeat the cycle.
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