Char from old barrel

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The Baker
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Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

I really like the idea of Badmotivator's barrels but couldn't get one because of the freight cost, largely (to a different country).
I am working on the idea of an oak cover on a coffee jar (which has a nice flat rim at the top, not screw top).

Sorta kicking this around...

Anyway, today I got a barrel staff from the local winemaker. Five feet two inches (157.5 cm) long
and about five to six inches (12.7 to 15.24 cm) wide,
varying of course.
He cut it in half with a chainsaw so it fitted in the boot of my car.
An inch and a half (3.81 cm) thick of which three eighths (.9525 cm) is heavy char.
These staves have been sitting in the weather for probably years.

I expect to cut it into say (just under?) five inch (12.7 cm) width and around six inch (15.24 cm) or twelve inch (30.48 cm)
lengths (for one jar or for two jars side-by-side).

I have some thickness of wood to play with but will need it to make good levelish pieces.

And I speculate a bit here, not being a woodworker:
After cutting the wood into these short lengths my friend the kitchen man could then cut off the char side roughly, and roughly square with say a band saw.
Leaving me the bits to play with...

Then he could straighten the sides with a thicknesser and straighten up the curve of the wood a bit.
Doesn't need to be truly straight except for the centre four and a half inches (11.43 cm)
or nine inches (22.86 cm) (actually a fair bit more because of the gap between the jars)
at the top of the curve
(which I will place downward touching the spirit) for the one or the two jars.

So any bits of oak left from this operation I will keep and use when aging spirit in glass.
Do you think the black, weathered charcoal would be good for that?
As an experiment I would use say an oak nugget and a lump of the rough charcoal together...

Geoff
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Ben
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by Ben »

You might scrape a little of that char back and re char. It seems like you have plenty of thickness to play with. Whatever benefit the charred portion was giving you likely got lost to the weather.

The woodworker will probably end up cutting off some of the char anyway. Generally you run the inside of the bow down the jointer so you have a flat face for the planer. I would say this is just fine. Getting some of the virgin wood exposed will help your experiment.
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

Ben wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:24 am You might scrape a little of that char back and re char. It seems like you have plenty of thickness to play with. Whatever benefit the charred portion was giving you likely got lost to the weather.

I will TASTE the char; I had a suspicion it may be useless because of the weather and will most likely discard it.
The oak looks okay where it was cut with the chainsaw.


The woodworker will probably end up cutting off some of the char anyway. Generally you run the inside of the bow down the jointer so you have a flat face for the planer. I would say this is just fine. Getting some of the virgin wood exposed will help your experiment.
Thanks a lot, I needed some clues from someone who can work with wood.
I will look carefully at your thoughts; it seems to me that cutting it into the required lengths FIRST will make it much simpler to
remove the excess char and shape the pieces, rather than trying to take the bow out of two long pieces.
And I will not need to remove anywhere near all the bow, the face against the open jar is small and the barrel was huge, not a lot of bow.

I plan to route a curved circle to take the top of the jar, with probably beeswax for a good seal.
And a base of just ordinary timber, and threaded rod for tension. (Did I say that already?)
Top and bottom squared off as support.

This was a good acquisition, free but I gave him a bottle of brandy made from old wine; something within his field of interest too.

If I make a success of this (maybe twelve jars from this much wood, one and a half litres capacity and stackable in twos)
and show him, there is every chance of another one or two staves...
And we are still drinking the same coffee...

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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by Ben »

You need to talk to the woodworker before you cut lengths. They will need a minimum length for their equipment. I like 12" for my planar, 6 is the absolute minimum for jointer and I like longer. If I have a bowed piece I will cut it before further processing so you are right on with the plan, just make sure you know the minimums.

I am interested in how this turns out. I have considered making white oak caps for mason jars, I just have too much other stuff going on. My distilling hobby time is limited to brewing and distilling for now.
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

Thanks again!

I was thinking of cutting to twelve inches minimum, that works for a double jar set-up.
Which is good for stacking, with dowel-peg-and-hole locators.
And single jars take three pieces of threaded rod; a two jar plan needs only four!

I guess you have read about Badmotivator and his 'barrels'.
Fascinating. 'Small barrels need less physical oak contact'. (Smaller, not meaning less time).

Search Badmo barrels (and similar) in this forum. And look for the links at the bottom of any of his own posts.

Mason jars; are they the ones that have a screw cap-with-a big-hole-in-it, that holds down a metal disc
with sealing material or maybe a rubber ring on it?
I seem to recall corene1 saying she tried oak discs held down by those clamping thingies
and found they did not seal well.
I plan to use beeswax in the groove of mine, maybe that would work somehow with the mason jars.

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Ben
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by Ben »

Wood is a challenge, its going to want to shrink and stretch across the grain. Its also going to be wet on one side and mostly dry on the other which will make it want to cup (warp). It has more than enough force to shatter the mason jars if you try to use it as a plug. So there are some technical things that have to be worked through. I have an idea of how to do it, jut not enough time, winter is coming though, things will slow down.

I think the trick to success on this if you are going to have something slide into the glass is to pre soak the wood before you give it over to the turner. That will make sure its swelled to wherever it is going to be, then you will just have to keep it wet (with hooch, hopefully)
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

I am thinking (partly from something you said) that it is best not to 'have something slide into the glass'
at all. Because it can swell and break the glass.
Which might rule out the mason jars; at least, using their screw fitting...

Maybe the oak piece should be dead flat and lay on the (flat) top of the jar,
and that flat surface of the oak could be recessed a bit to locate it.

Or the flat top of the jar should fit into a shallow flat bottomed groove,
or if the top of the jar is not flat the groove should match its profile.

(and the join could be kept tight, sealed, another way, threaded rod maybe to a wooden base).

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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by NormandieStill »

The Baker wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:12 am Maybe the oak piece should be dead flat and lay on the (flat) top of the jar,
and that flat surface of the oak could be recessed a bit to locate it.
Geoff
This is what I was suggesting in the other thread. The recess doesn't need to be a tight fit to the jar, just enables lining it when assembling. The idea of beeswax as a sealant is appealing. You could use steel angle to reinforce the wood to reduce cupping, but I think that your problems should be reasonably limited over the area of the mouth of the jar. Reinforcement might just encourage cracking.

I've got some weathered french oak (chopped down a tree about 4 years ago) and kiln-dried french oak (I'm a carpenter), so if I get a chance in a few weeks I'll work up some prototypes and try soaking them to see what happens (If the tests prove successful I might age my first batch of HBB in one).

A few gotchas to plan for.

1) You don't want any char at the interface with the glass so there'll need to be a blank to protect that area.
2) You probably want a filling hole with a bung in the lid. I'm not sure I'd want to try and assemble one of these around a jar full of precious spirits. This would also allow easy topping up and sampling and mean that you could test each one with water before committing spirits to them.
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by jonnys_spirit »

How about an oak bung cut to fit into the jar and a thickness of cork around it with some elasticity? Ie; cut a hole into a cork bung then bung the cork with a charred oak plug? Cork might be elastic enough to absorb the oak swelling.

Or an oak disc attached to the bottom of some cork with a pressure fit bung/plug?

Just some drunken thoughts lol…

Cheers!
-j


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Ben
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by Ben »

I think thoroughly pre soak the wood, let the turner turn it, have him add an o-ring groove, use an oring of an approved material. That will largely account for the shrink stretch, doesn't have to stay flat and should provide an adequate seal. You will have to have a retainer or bail to keep it from popping out with pressure changes, but that could just be a band wrapped top to bottom.

The necks on these masons are well reinforced. I am sure they will take some pressure, just not all of it. Don't try to fight the wood movement, embrace it an accept it as fact.

Try, try to fail, failure will be a great teacher and get you the answers quickly.
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

NormandieStill said,
' 2) You probably want a filling hole with a bung in the lid. I'm not sure I'd want to try and assemble one of these around a jar full of precious spirits. This would also allow easy topping up and sampling and mean that you could test each one with water before committing spirits to them.'

The plan would be to set the jars so they are sort of in a wooden frame, oak on top and ordinary wood on the bottom,
and joined with threaded rod, so, laying on their side. And perhaps in a set with others on top.
So I could not stand it up to fill it.

I thought of maybe the two bungholes. Fairly close to top and bottom.
No problem getting close to the edge because the 'barrel top' extends, as a square, to form a rack and to take the threaded rod.

But instead of inserting the butt plug directly into the wood I could fit a short piece of stainless tube,
and insert the plug into that.
Use a funnel with a curve at its base, for filling.

Or even have the curve built into the top stainless tube and poke the butt plug vertically into that.
Easier to use and might fill a little higher. Would look different...
And there would be no leakage if you open the top to let air in, to pour from the bottom


And to remove product, it would pour better from the bottom stainless tube.
Also there would be no damage to the oak from repeated insertion of the butt plug.

Geoff
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

Ben said, 'I think thoroughly pre soak the wood, let the turner turn it, have him add an o-ring groove, use an oring of an approved material. That will largely account for the shrink stretch, doesn't have to stay flat and should provide an adequate seal...'

I can imagine the seal that comes with a four inch modular fitting.
It is flat on one side with a narrow projection on the other to fit in a groove in the fitting.
So if I cut that shaped groove in the flat surface of the oak and fit the seal in the groove,
it will have a flat surface on the other size like the top of the jar, I think probably the right size...
I will check it soon...

(or maybe it has the ridge on both sides but it can be cut off carefully with a razor blade; can't remember...)

But a good possibility...

And if not, the o-ring is good.

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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by Ben »

The Baker wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:05 am

I can imagine the seal that comes with a four inch modular fitting.
I

Geoff
Any chance you have a pic of this? I think I know what you are talking about, but I am not positive.
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

Ben wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:18 am
The Baker wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:05 am

I can imagine the seal that comes with a four inch modular fitting.
I

Geoff
Any chance you have a pic of this? I think I know what you are talking about, but I am not positive.
image.png
image.png (32.54 KiB) Viewed 750 times

image.png
image.png (32.58 KiB) Viewed 750 times
Dunno if those copying attempts worked, one is from Stilldragon Australia website, Triclamps Ferrules and Gaskets.

Geoff
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

Hey, they DID work!
So I've got a couple, I will look and see if maybe...
And one of those sites has 0-rings too.

I was thinking of steaming those staves to then flatten them.
But then I thought that might remove what flavour there was still in that old oak.

So I will probably shape them with planers and whatever, the wood is very thick,
and fairly flat lengthwise and across because the barrel was so long and so wide around.

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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by Ben »

]the stresses in them may come out in soaking. Maybe cut one down to a length you can fit in something and give it a soak.

Those gaskets are what I thought you were talking about. That could work. They have that little rib on either side, does that fit inside the mason nicely?

I ordered some stainless mason lids off amazon to replace some mason jar lids that were rusting through, they came with removable gaskets:
1019211323.jpg
Maybe those could work if your trying for a compression seal.
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

Ben wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:23 am the stresses in them may come out in soaking. Maybe cut one down to a length you can fit in something and give it a soak.
I was thinking about steaming or soaking but then I thought about that taking flavour from the oak;
and I think there is plenty of thickness to shape the wood by 'planing and trimming and such'.


Those gaskets are what I thought you were talking about. That could work. They have that little rib on either side, does that fit inside the mason nicely?
My jars (Moccona coffee jars) are FLAT on the top; well near enough to flat, there is a slight groove which would help make a good seal.
They don't have a screw like the mason jars so I want a flat side of the gasket to sit on the jar.
If the gasket has a ridge on the other side I could make a matching groove in the wood just to locate it.
And if there is a ridge on each side I will carefully remove one with a razor blade.
I WANT one flat side.


I ordered some stainless mason lids off amazon to replace some mason jar lids that were rusting through, they came with removable gaskets: 1019211323.jpg

Maybe those could work if your trying for a compression seal.
Yes it is a compression seal and yes they might be better than the ones I saw, they look thicker.
I might have to make a matching 'wide flat groove' in the oak to locate them if I used that seal.
Geoff
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

Ben,
I can get the seals (pictured in your post above) in the hardware store.
Looks exactly the same, sold in Australia for our popular Fowlers preserving (canning) jars.
The four inch one is exactly right, so, a good alternative.

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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by NormandieStill »

Those all look like silicone. I'm still looking to see if I can get synthetic-free cork sheet. Then I would cut a gasket from cork to be the interface between the glass and the oak.
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

NormandieStill wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:55 am Those all look like silicone. I'm still looking to see if I can get synthetic-free cork sheet. Then I would cut a gasket from cork to be the interface between the glass and the oak.
Good idea too.
But if I go with the others I can overlay it with plumber's tape.
The white not the pink which seems to deteriorate.

Thanks.

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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by Ben »

If the inner diameter of the neck of your jar is 4" it looks like a #240 o ring will work. They are available made of PTFE in the US through a number of sources so you may be able to find them. In my case I measured out a fairly significant taper in the mason jars, so that complicates the inner seal.
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Re: Char from old barrel

Post by The Baker »

The Baker wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:16 pm Ben,
I can get the seals (pictured in your post above) in the hardware store.
Looks exactly the same, sold in Australia for our popular Fowlers preserving (canning) jars.
The four inch one is exactly right, so, a good alternative.

Geoff
I was wrong, these are like the seals sold for swing top jars.

Geoff
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