Oak and whiskey

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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Toxxyc
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Toxxyc »

subbrew wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:01 am
Toxxyc wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:41 am Y I'm planning a quick boiling water rinse and then also the addition of some Sodium Percarbonate just to make sure everything that can spoil, is dead.
You are going to put approximately 120 proof alcohol in the barrel, anything that can spoil will be dead. The water to rinse out floaties sounds good but I am not sure you need the SPC. Just seems like something else that might get in a crack in the wood and not get rinsed out.
Thanks man. I ended up rinsing the barrel with hot water but it kept producing funny bits so I ended up filling it with hot water and added SPC anyway to clean it well. I let it stand overnight, then rinsed it really well with boiling water for a few times until the water ran out clean, and then filled it.

EDIT: SPC is Sodium Percarbonate, a common no-rinse brewery and dairy cleaner (and sometimes sanitizer), so it's not a dangerous chemical at all.

I tasted the whisky that went in (it's at 110 proof), that's been sitting for 6 months on ex-bourbon chips and charred French Oak, and it is DEVINE. I'm hoping this ex-sherry wood will give it a tiny bit more colour, and perhaps a slight sherry influence. I'm not leaving it in there for long - 2~4 weeks and I'm bottling. The whisky is phenomenal, I wasn't expecting anything near that after the 6 months I've let it age.

I've made a few spirits before and they always got bottled and handed out at the 2 to 3 month mark. This time though, I decided to let it sit until the 6 month mark to see if it makes a difference. In the glass jar (opening and tasting once a month) I didn't see much of a difference over time, but once I poured it out and had a taste, I realized how much of a difference even just a tiny bit of time makes.

I can't wait to get the next batch started. Going to do the same again - mostly malted barley spirit (single malt), but I also added a small bit of corn that I cooked overnight, and then soured slightly before adding the yeast. The fermentation smelled really funky, but the distilled spirit was great, so I blended that with the single malt and the result is great. Has that slightly sweet corn on the tongue alongside the smooth barley.

I'll post pics once it's bottled and done.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Toxxyc wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:34 pm … The whisky is phenomenal, I wasn't expecting anything near that after the 6 months I've let it age … I didn't see much of a difference over time, but once I poured it out and had a taste, I realized how much of a difference even just a tiny bit of time makes ….
Yes, as noted before, “patience is the hardest thing to put into a bottle”.

True that!
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Toxxyc »

I think now the only solution to my impatience is to get enough spirits in aging that I won't be tempted all the time. So I guess it's time to start the mashes and washes and get the still running. I want to see if I can get around 20l of good hearts aging before the end of the year.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Toxxyc wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:48 am… I want to see if I can get around 20l of good hearts aging …
Once you get “there”, using the solera technique should keep you happy.

https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Solera_Aging

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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Yes I'm familiar with the solera technique, but I simply don't have enough barrels to do that. I have just the one I'm comfortable using. The other one (slightly larger) that I have here soaked for a long time, but never sealed up. I then removed it from the water to dry out, and now all the rings are falling off. Two staves also cracked and I'm not sure how waterproof it'll remain. I'll have to see if I can fix it up first, but even then, two small barrels aren't really enough to go through the solera technique at my place.

Oh yes, and barrels are really expensive around here. Like REALLY expensive.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Toxxyc »

I pulled a tiny sample from the barrel this weekend to see what it'll do to the whisky, and I noticed that what I wanted is happening slightly faster than I expected. I wanted a slight oaky hint to it that'll balance the sweetness of the whisky, as well as a darker colour. I'm getting both, quite noticeably, after less than 2 weeks later. So I'm going to give this another week on the oak and then I'm bottling it. I don't want it to get tannic or "dry" from the oak.

Overall, the whisky is great. The mini cask is giving great colour to the liquor and it looks, smells and tastes great. It's at 55% ABV right now (110 Proof) and it seems to hide a lot of flavour at that strength, so I'm definitely watering it down to 43% ABV come bottling. I added a bit of water to open it up in the glass and it really makes the whisky shine. Very happy with this, I'm already looking at bigger bags of malt to use so I can make some more.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by still_stirrin »

Toxxyc wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:03 am… I'm getting both, quite noticeably, after less than 2 weeks later. So I'm going to give this another week on the oak and then I'm bottling it. I don't want it to get tannic or "dry" from the oak…
What I’ve found is that from 1 to 3 months on wood is the “adolescent age”, that is, when the maturity is “mischievous” and not well behaving. It will be coarse although it will start to have a nice aroma. And the color is enhanced as well. But it will give you questions about whether to pull it from the cask, or leave it longer, such as “will it get too dry and astringent”?

But as the spirit is 6 to 12 months on wood, it really begins to develop nicely. This is the “teenage period” when the character has developed to the point that you’ll notice the strengths of your grainbill/recipe. At 12 months, you’ll begin to really appreciate your patience with waiting, as the product will invite you “to party with it”.

And if you can wait more than a year or 2, you’ll be rewarded with a “top shelf prize”. The wood will mature your flavor and deepen the color giving your spirit the finish you’ll love. The caramel and vanilla notes will complement the grain flavors adding the richness and complexity you enjoy in a premium spirit.

So, sample as you go, but leave it on wood. And keep the fermenter bubbling and continue to refine your recipe to your tastes. Before you know it, your liquor cabinet will be stocked with your own signature whiskey.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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So the whisky has been aged white for a month or two before I decided what to oak it on. Then I oaked it for just over 6 months, and it's not gone into the mini-cask literally to pick up just a tiny bit of flavour, and colour. I have no idea what too long time in the mini-cask will do to it, since it once held red wine, and as such I'm worried about leaving it too long (over-oaking).

So I'll pull this batch after 3~4 weeks, which has always been my goal, since it's the first time the mini-cask is filled with a spirit. Next runs will obviously be slightly longer as the oak starts to lose it's flavour and colour. Eventually I'll probably use it as a serving vessel, which would be pretty awesome.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Yoosefheidari »

hi guys
if i use corks in my bottles during bottling stage does it causes aging whiskey in bottle?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Google 'whiskey aging after bottling'
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Toxxyc wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:15 pm So the whisky has been aged white for a month or two before I decided what to oak it on. Then I oaked it for just over 6 months, and it's not gone into the mini-cask literally to pick up just a tiny bit of flavour, and colour. I have no idea what too long time in the mini-cask will do to it, since it once held red wine, and as such I'm worried about leaving it too long (over-oaking).

So I'll pull this batch after 3~4 weeks, which has always been my goal, since it's the first time the mini-cask is filled with a spirit. Next runs will obviously be slightly longer as the oak starts to lose it's flavour and colour. Eventually I'll probably use it as a serving vessel, which would be pretty awesome.
Toxxyc how’s the progress going for your? when you say mini cask what are you talking 1L, 50L? I’m aging in a one gallon barrel and would like to compare notes with somebody aging around the same amount. I’ve been running smaller 6 gallon batches so I can’t seem to keep the whiskey around longer than 5-6 months.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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still_stirrin wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:54 am
Toxxyc wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:03 am… I'm getting both, quite noticeably, after less than 2 weeks later. So I'm going to give this another week on the oak and then I'm bottling it. I don't want it to get tannic or "dry" from the oak…
What I’ve found is that from 1 to 3 months on wood is the “adolescent age”, that is, when the maturity is “mischievous” and not well behaving. It will be coarse although it will start to have a nice aroma. And the color is enhanced as well. But it will give you questions about whether to pull it from the cask, or leave it longer, such as “will it get too dry and astringent”?

But as the spirit is 6 to 12 months on wood, it really begins to develop nicely. This is the “teenage period” when the character has developed to the point that you’ll notice the strengths of your grainbill/recipe. At 12 months, you’ll begin to really appreciate your patience with waiting, as the product will invite you “to party with it”.

And if you can wait more than a year or 2, you’ll be rewarded with a “top shelf prize”. The wood will mature your flavor and deepen the color giving your spirit the finish you’ll love. The caramel and vanilla notes will complement the grain flavors adding the richness and complexity you enjoy in a premium spirit.

So, sample as you go, but leave it on wood. And keep the fermenter bubbling and continue to refine your recipe to your tastes. Before you know it, your liquor cabinet will be stocked with your own signature whiskey.
ss
How big of a cap are you talking 5 gallon minimum? One Gallon? I’ve read that 3 months in a new one gallon barrel is close to max before over oaking. I’ve always been too chicken too age any longer than 4 months.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Toxxyc »

To the two guys above me - the barrel is probably around one gallon, maybe a tad more. It's also not a new barrel, I believe it was bought with wine in it, and then refilled at some stage. I've also filled and refilled it with water and cleaning stuff several times so I'm pretty sure the oak is fairly "worn out" by now.

However, I've still not bottled from the barrel. The whisky is still in there. Over the weekend I actually pulled a small sample and it's REALLY coming together. It's starting to smooth out rapidly now (about 10 months after distillation) so time is paying off beautifully here. There was an initial oak punch, but it's starting to reduce greatly now, with sweetness mellowing it out quite a bit.

I have to add the whisky stood in a glass jar with other oaks for almost 7 months before going into the barrel, so there's that as well. It already went in "decent".
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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For those of you familiar with different Oaks, I have a question regarding flavors imparted. I've been using oak sticks of what I was led to believe was American white oak, seasoned outside, and cut to .7 by .7 by 5 inches long, toasted and charred by me (400F for 90 minutes to a golden brown in foil, then charred to alligator char). I've got several gallon jugs of different spirits aging from 6 months old to 14 months old. All of them I've used 3 fingers in about 3.5 quarts in a loosely corked gallon jug. All of them have the same big vanilla flavor, as well as what I'm picking up as something I can only describe as tobacco. It smells and tastes like when you smell a freshly opened pack of cigarettes. I've been unsuccessful at finding information that will help me pinpoint the source of the flavor/smell. Its not off putting, but it's unexpected and I'd like to eliminate it. Could this be red oak not white? Its not bitter, acrid, or anything like what Id consider over oaked, just weird. The dried glass if left to sit overnight smells like sweet vanilla pipe tobacco.
Am I over toasting? Over charring? Both?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Following. I've not been very successful in toasting my own oak. The oak ends up dry and doesn't provide the flavours I want, and I've picked up all kinds of odd flavours. Right now if I char, I simply char raw seasoned oak (untoasted) to alligator char, and that's what I use. I have picked up all kinds of odd flavours from my own toasted oak, from generic vegetal notes to freshly cut grass and even fresh cut pumpkin, and I don't enjoy it. Right now I just use store bought toasted oak. It's expensive, but a little goes a long way and at least then I'm happy with the end product.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Deplorable wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:36 am For those of you familiar with different Oaks, I have a question regarding flavors imparted.

I've been using oak sticks of what I was led to believe was American white oak, seasoned outside, and cut to .7 by .7 by 5 inches long, toasted and charred by me (400F for 90 minutes to a golden brown in foil, then charred to alligator char). I've got several gallon jugs of different spirits aging from 6 months old to 14 months old. All of them I've used 3 fingers in about 3.5 quarts in a loosely corked gallon jug. All of them have the same big vanilla flavor, as well as

… what I'm picking up as something I can only describe as tobacco. It smells and tastes like when you smell a freshly opened pack of cigarettes.

I've been unsuccessful at finding information that will help me pinpoint the source of the flavor/smell. Its not off putting, but it's unexpected and I'd like to eliminate it. Could this be red oak not white? Its not bitter, acrid, or anything like what Id consider over oaked, just weird. The dried glass if left to sit overnight smells like sweet vanilla pipe tobacco.

Am I over toasting? Over charring? Both?
This sounds exactly like what I get from “home toasted” and “alligator char” on American white oak from my trees. Perhaps, you have just a little too deep of char, but really the “tobacco” notes will be nice in a couple of years. If you lower the toast temperature a little, it would move the character back to the sweeter, caramel/vanilla you may be aiming for.

So, try adjusting the temperature a little and reduce the intensity of the char. Then, blend it with your mature “tobacco” stock and you’ll have a bottle or 2 that I’ll gladly sample with you. :lol:
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Deplorable »

Thanks for the advice SS. I'll try that. I've actually got a couple used dry fingers out by the grill that I was thinking of cutting open to get a cross section view of what's going on.
My wife, who's better at picking flavors and aromas says she gets a combination of vanilla and spices with cinnamon being the easiest to pick out.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Yoosefheidari »

is there any advantage aerating the spirit during aging by oak sticks with a aquarium pump say once every week?
does it help better aroma or flavor development or aging...?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Yoosefheidari wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:30 am is there any advantage aerating the spirit during aging by oak sticks with a aquarium pump say once every week?
does it help better aroma or flavor development or aging...?
I think it’d be hard to do that and exclude exposing the high proof spirit (solvent) from glue binders and plastic in the air-stone mechanism. Instead you might try only filling your aging vessel 1/2 to 2/3 full and shaking it or opening every week to let volatiles escape and some O2 in? Maybe cork it loosely?

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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by The Baker »

You can make an 'airstone' thingy with stainless or maybe copper tube.

Lots of little holes, and the end sealed off...

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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I googled it and DIY wood airstones are a thing. I can see drilling some tiny holes into a piece of oak and hooking up some small cooper or SS tubing/pipe to be fed from an air pump. Maybe on a timer with a cork and cooper air-lock mechanism to control it for a measured exposure?

Interested to see how that might work out along with some controlled heat.

Cheers!
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:21 am I googled it and DIY wood airstones are a thing. I can see drilling some tiny holes into a piece of oak and hooking up some small cooper or SS tubing/pipe to be fed from an air pump. Maybe on a timer with a cork and cooper air-lock mechanism to control it for a measured exposure?

Interested to see how that might work out along with some controlled heat.

Cheers!
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Ben »

The tobacco thing is interesting. That is definitely a flavor I would go for in a long term product. I wonder if it has to do with the drying process used prior to toasting/kilning etc. There are myriad of ways to dry lumber, season lumber etc, and the "terroir" of the wood itself. Also the time of year lumber is cut makes a difference, it will be more sappy in the spring, less water in it near the end of winter before the sap runs, etc, etc.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Yoosefheidari »

i didn't use airstone to aerate a high ABV spirit instead i use a medical grade pipe and seal one end and by using a needle i make hundreds micro holes at the end.when i put in spirit and turning pump on it aerate spirit even better than a air stone.
i use that for my beer aerating too.
it seems no one try using pump aerating to aging spirit.
so i do that to see what happend againts one of my jars that i didnt aerate.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by jonnys_spirit »

NormandieStill wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:11 am
jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:21 am I googled it and DIY wood airstones are a thing. I can see drilling some tiny holes into a piece of oak and hooking up some small cooper or SS tubing/pipe to be fed from an air pump. Maybe on a timer with a cork and cooper air-lock mechanism to control it for a measured exposure?

Interested to see how that might work out along with some controlled heat.

Cheers!
-j
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Lots of ideas around here Normandie.. :) We just need time to try them all out and amazing how they almost all end up with a drink in my hand !?!?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Hey, in-jar aging adepts!
Some more ideas for all of us, folks ;)
.
sticks.jpg
.
It's only a picture... the TL;DR itself is over there :yawn:

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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Goose »

Ok I live in a hot humid tropical climate. I've tried ageing in 5L new french oak barrels, but the angels are drinking like 1 litre in 2 months :esurprised: which is too much and soon there going to be none left before it starts tasting good. So I have decided to ditch the barrel idea and go to 10 litre jars and add sticks.

The sticks I am looking at buying look like this, I am considering getting some medium toast and a heavy toast selection, and would like some guidance as to how much to use (by weight) in a 10 L jar ?

Any pointers appreciated
oak sticks 2.jpg
oak sticks 1.jpg
Last edited by Goose on Thu May 11, 2023 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by NormandieStill »

You really want to be working from surface area. If you search the forum you'll find various tables giving surface area to volume ratios for different barrel sizes. From there you can work out how many of your chunks to put in.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Goose »

that makes sense, will look around. thanks
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Recommend using approximately 2-4 finger sized sticks per gallon @120 proof. Start with two and see how you like it?

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