Barrel question

hornedrhodent · Post by **hornedrhodent** » Fri May 12, 2006 3:33 am

A friend gave me a barrel he picked up from the footpath where it had been left out for rubbish collection day. He grabbed it for the brass tap in it. As soon as I spotted it he lost it.

It was half full of what smelled like port or brown muscat with a vinegary smell. I emptied it and it contained something which I think might have been grape skins. On filling it with water I found it leaked from a tiny hole about halfway up next to one of the bands.

I sealed the hole with candle wax and got it to hold water. After soaking for a week or two it has a definate vinegar smell.

I'll soak and refill a few more times to try and remove the smell.

Question - If I use it for spirit will it kill any vinegar bacteria or make very strong vinegar?
Any suggestions on making the barrel usable?

Post by **golden pond** » Fri May 12, 2006 3:47 am

You might try adding baking soda to your water or I think there's a cleaning product out on the market called ( Barrelclean) you can also use.

Bujapat · Post by **Bujapat** » Fri May 12, 2006 4:16 am

Never tried it, but I know winemakers desinfect their barrels burnin' sulphur inside. Sulphur ribbons exist in that way. Search at winemaker's suppliers.

There is an explanation (in french, dutch, english...) on http://www.brouwland.com on how to clean and maintain oak barrels.

hornedrhodent · Post by **hornedrhodent** » Fri May 12, 2006 5:16 am

That link didn't work for me Bujapat.

So - Baking soda to neutralise the acetic acid followed by sodium metabisulphite to produce SO2 for sterilising.

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Fri May 12, 2006 7:05 am

http://www.brouwland.be onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I think the site is down for a while

and if you are interested:
NaHCO3 + H+ => H2O +CO2 + Na+

Bujapat · Post by **Bujapat** » Fri May 12, 2006 7:18 am

Just phoned them... As I thought, they have problems with their server, but they said it will be ok on monday.

Bujapat · Post by **Bujapat** » Fri May 12, 2006 7:34 am

I've got the info in my paper catalog (in french, so I translate as I can), it's adressed to winemakers, but I suppose it's right for distillers too :

Prepare and disinfect a new barrel :
Fill the barrel with 10 g/L tartaric acid solution and let sit for 4-5 days. Empty, drain, and disinfect with a sulphur match. Full with wine immediately.

Prepare and disinfect an used barrel :
Clean (brush vigorously) with an anhydrous soda solution (1 kg/10 L very hot water). Rince well with a lot of clean water. Fill the barrel with 10 g/L tartaric acid solution and let sit for 2-3 days. Empty, drain, and disinfect with a sulphur match.
They say 1 match is efficient for 200 L barrel, so 1/2 for 100 L...

Hope it will help!

MyDBear · Post by **MyDBear** » Fri May 12, 2006 8:22 am

I sent a e-mail to a cooperage to see if they would know what could be done. I will post their answer when i get it. But from my understanding, once the vinegar bacteria has established itself in the wood, the barrel is done for, i may be wrong, I dont know how long it will take them to get back with me but as soon as they do i will post their answer.

Rocky_Creek · Post by **Rocky_Creek** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:30 am

If you can get the smell out, 100 proof plus will take care of the bacteria.

MyDBear · Post by **MyDBear** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:34 am

This is what was sent to me

"Unfortunately, when a barrel goes bad there is not much you can do, other than get it out of the cellar so it doesn't contaminate the other barrels. Aceto bacteria tend to become airborne very easily."

Sorry for you but your wife might have two good planters if you cut it in half.

Then i got this:

It would be worth trying to clean the barrel with soda ash or sodium carbonate and hot water. After you have cleaned it and let it dry, I would let your nose be your guide. If you have any doubts, it's probably best to cut it for a planter rather than risk your wine in it. I have copied some barrel cleaning instructions I found online below:

Cleaning Barrels

It is best not to use barrels that have become moldy inside. If barrels are to be used, a new one is a good investment. A new barrel should be cleaned before using. Use two ounces of soda ash, sal soda, or sodium carbonate for each three gallons of water. Now fill the barrel half full with water as hot as you can get it. Then add the soda ash that has previously been dissolved in a little hot water. Shake or roll the barrel until the solution is well mixed. Now finish filling with water as hot as you can get it.
Bung the barrel tight and roll it around to agitate it. Roll the barrel several times during a 12-hour period. Then empty it and rinse several times until all the solution has been washed out. A length of clean chain put into the barrel at the start of your cleaning operation will help considerably in cleaning the barrel by working as an abrasive. Tie the ends of the chain together to prevent knots from forming.
Always wash the outside of the barrel with a stiff brush using the soda solution. Do this before cleaning the inside and before using the barrel if it has not been used for a while.
Your barrel should now be ready to use. If you are not going to use the barrel for a few days or are storing it for a long period of time, be sure to sanitize the barrel prior to use.

Sanitizing Barrels

To sanitize your barrel, fill it half full of water. Dissolve the proper amount of sodium bisulphite in a little water and pour it in the barrel. Then dissolve the proper amount of citric acid in a little water and pour it into the barrel. Now bung up the barrel and mix well by shaking or rolling the barrel. Finish filling the barrel with water and bung tightly. Check the water in the barrel from time to time, completely filling it each time.
When you're ready to use the barrel, rinse it out, then fill it again with fresh water and leave it overnight. Rinse out the barrel again, and it is ready to use.
Use one-half pound of citric acid and one pound (0.45 kg) of sodium bisulphite for each 50 gallons (190 L) of barrel capacity. Do not use less than the stated amounts.
Another method for sanitizing barrels uses sulfur wicks. After cleaning and draining the barrel, burn half a sulfur wick per 50-gallon barrel capacity and the same ratio for smaller barrels once a month until you're ready to use your barrel. Tie the sulfur wicks securely to fine wire, light them, and lower them into the barrel, then bung tight. The bung will hold the wire. When you are ready to use the barrel, rinse it thoroughly and use within a few hours.
These are only a few methods for cleaning and sanitizing that are available to the home winemaker. They by no means comprise a complete list of every product or method. So experiment to find a method that works well for you and gets the job done

cellsitegod · Post by **cellsitegod** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:58 am

Here in Napa. After the cleaning and the sulpher (if needed). We soak them in water and "Barrel Clean" for a week(You can get online at wine supplys) then a day of soaking with citric acid and your ready to go.

hornedrhodent · Post by **hornedrhodent** » Fri May 19, 2006 4:32 am

Thanks for the input everyone.

I soldered a bit of copper tube into a large paint type can and steamed the barrel for a few hours to kill the vinegar producing bacteria. I used bicarb soda to neutralise any vinegar. I rinsed and soaked it a few times with water. I soaked it with some citric acid and gave it another rinse.
It still smelled like vinegar.

I took 4 litre of the middle of the 1st run on my new still and put in a little bottle of whiskey flavour supposed to do 5 litre (It didn't taste strong enough at the correct rate) and stuck it in the barrel.

Since I'm out of home brewed beer I've been sampling it each day and it's tasting better each day. I haven't tasted any vinegar taste so I judge the treatment to be a success.

Thanks again everyone - It's great to be able to salvage a bit of junk and make it work again.

muckanic · Post by **muckanic** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:05 am

Seeing as how I have become interested in second-hand barrels, I thought I might revive this thread.

Vinegar is one problem, but clearly internal wax seems to be another. As far as I can tell, the recommended procedure for such barrels is to pull them apart, which is obviously a PITA. Has anyone tried burning wax and other contaminants out? I have read about home charring methods which basically involve dropping in a bunch of hot coals and rolling the barrel around, but it also occurs that some ignited spirit might do the clean-up job (albeit producing a thin layer of charcoal and no real baking effect). Now before anyone jumps in and conjures up visions of barrels going ka-boom, let me point out that spirit-fuelled stoves do not generally explode, as it takes some deliberate steps to atomise the fuel in the presence of oxygen.

At this point, it also occurs to me that I do not fully understand the commercial barrel-charring procedure. It reputedly involves oven-baking at two different temperature points with the barrels fully assembled, no? Which provokes a couple of questions:

1. How come the staves don't distort during the baking?
2. Wouldn't the fact that the barrel exterior gets charred be a major PITA?

hornedrhodent · Post by **hornedrhodent** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:07 am

="muckanic"
Seeing as how I have become interested in second-hand barrels, I thought I might revive this thread.

........ but clearly internal wax seems to be another.

Where does the wax come from - the wood or the contents?

1. How come the staves don't distort during the baking?
2. Wouldn't the fact that the barrel exterior gets charred be a major PITA?

I thought the toast or char was done with just the body of the barrel assembled - in fact the heating is part of the process of bending the staves. AFAIK the groove is cut and the heads are put in afterwards.

hornedrhodent · Post by **hornedrhodent** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:15 am

Update on my barrel resurrection.

It's still working fine - it's only 7 litre so doesn't stay full for long - I usually distress age with sticks in a gallon jar in and out of the fridge until the colour is ok before it goes into the barrel. I usually notice an improvement over the short time it's there.

I badly need to increase production to get ahead of my consumption.

Rocky_Creek · Post by **Rocky_Creek** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:01 am

I don't understand how so many can get so confused. He was not talking about putting wine in this barrel, and the bacteria won't survive distilled spirits.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:33 am

That's one thing I prefer about this hobby as opposed to beer/wine making. The product you are filling the bottles with is also a disinfectant.

hornedrhodent · Post by **hornedrhodent** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:10 am

="knuklehead"
That's one thing I prefer about this hobby as opposed to beer/wine making. The product you are filling the bottles with is also a disinfectant.

I'm glad you said disinfectant rather than steriliser - I'd rather it didn't take the lead out of my pencil!

copperstill · Post by **copperstill** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:38 am

Buy a new barrel instead of trying to polish a turd. If you are trying to age a spirit that you care about your best off investing in good oak. That said your other options are to re-coup the bbl http://www.recoop.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow I'm sure there are other coopers where ever you live that can do what recoop does(my guess is that it should cost about $100 Dollars US). You also could try and look for used white wine BBLs; one resource you might look on is winerysite.com. I've seen them for reasonable prices there. The only drawback is that you would need to be near a wine or whiskey producing region.

possum · Post by **possum** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:52 am

muckanic,
The charring is done before the barrel ends are fastened. The barrel is a tube at this point, and the Propanne(and propane acessories) are inserted into the tube and fired. Then the lids are fastened with another pair of hoops. In this way the inside of the barrel gets charred but not the inside.
My G-grandfather was a cooper, but didn't teach me the trade, I was only 10 when he passed. His opinion was that a water,beer,wine, or whiskey barrel was easier to make than a flour barrel, because of the swelling that would help seal a liquid barrel.
Only what I've been told, I never have built any barrels.

muckanic · Post by **muckanic** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:52 pm

="possum". The charring is done before the barrel ends are fastened. The barrel is a tube at this point, and the Propanne(and propane acessories) are inserted into the tube and fired.

Aha! that explains it. All that talk of temperature points made me assume that oven-controlled precision was involved. It is slightly ironic how us amateurs seem to prefer oven-baked wood strips to direct firing.

Post by **theholymackerel** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:18 am

I don't know about that.

I, and most other potstillers I know use a torch to scorch our oak.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:41 pm

an oven toastes, a torch chars. I think if you charred oak in your oven in your house someone would be upset plus it would take forever. I use a gas burner outside as well.

hornedrhodent · Post by **hornedrhodent** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:04 am

="theholymackerel"

I don't know about that.

I, and most other potstillers I know use a torch to scorch our oak.

I'm jealous of you yanks having oak growing everywhere - but I'm not jealous of the cold weather you need to grow it.

The only way us southern hemisphere, warm climate folks get oak is to buy chips from a home brew shop at a horribly exorbitant price or buy a half a barrel as a plant pot at a horribly exorbitant price.

Post by **theholymackerel** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:23 am

I like the snowy winter. I live at over 2k metres by choice, and hope to move my wife and I to a smaller town at higher altitude.

Anyway, back to wood for agin' booze: If oak is too expensive or hard to get then try fruit woods or most any hardwood that folks use for smokin' meat.

I know a young hippy couple that live on the island of Kawai. They live simple and are mostly self sufficient. They like to drink so they have learned how to brew, vint, and distill. She found it hard to get oak to age her booze on. Her neighbor used two locally growin' woods to smoke meat with. She tried them and both were good for agin' booze: Guava, and Kiawe. Her dark rum aged on Kiawe is incredible.

So go ahead and try different woods. Ya might discover somethin' wonderful... just keep away from conifers (pine, spruce, fir, etc) and keep away from most soft woods and anythin' with LOTS of oil/resin/pitch in it. (So no eucalyptus.)

I wish ya luck.

muckanic · Post by **muckanic** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:05 am

hornedrhodent wrote:The only way us southern hemisphere, warm climate folks get oak is to buy chips from a home brew shop at a horribly exorbitant price or buy a half a barrel as a plant pot at a horribly exorbitant price.

I walk through a grove of oak every day (dunno the species). There are some advantages in living in a place where the planners for reasons best known to themselves decided we had to have deciduous trees in public areas. OTOH, lumber seasoning is not trivial. I was intrigued to see that recent post which more or less talked about distress seasoning. Up till then, I had a bunch of apple cuttings sitting out in the shed in the summer heat, and wasn't planning to touch them until the bark had at least started to peel.

Rudi · Post by **Rudi** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:57 am

Try a cooper I found one close to me sold me a cubic meter of white oak peices for $5. He said he sells ALOT.

Samogon · Post by **Samogon** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:01 am

possum wrote:muckanic,
The charring is done before the barrel ends are fastened. The barrel is a tube at this point, and the Propanne(and propane acessories) are inserted into the tube and fired.

Any thoughts on charring the inside of a completed barrel? It is much easier to find 'toasted' barrels for wine than charred barrels for whiskey. I know Gibbs Brothers sells charred barrels, but I can get wine barrels locally. Other than taking the heads off to get a torch to the insides, has anyone heard of a method for charring a wine barrel?

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:24 pm

I read somewhere about dropping burning coals into the barrel and then rolling it. Seems like a fun way to spend an afternoon, but it might not work so well. especially on a full sized barrel. Getting all the ash out would be next to impossible... I'd be more inclined to just take the staves and char pieces of nice white oak. Add that to the whiskey

partsbill · Post by **partsbill** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:49 pm

theholymackerel wrote:I don't know about that.

I, and most other potstillers I know use a torch to scorch our oak.

I personally use barrel staves once used. Then cut in to 3/4" wide pieces before placing @80 of them in a carboy for a little r&r. Since its too hard for me to age 55 gallons in a barrel at one time, a half a dozen or so carboys at various stages seems to work out quite well.

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