Oak and whiskey

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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Honest_Liberty
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Toxxyc wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:09 pm I actually have some whisky and rum (store bought) to keep me going, so I'm really going to let that one sit. Forget about it.
you are a stronger man that I. I made 28 gallons this year (that would be after aging and proofing down to 86-90 proof), of which 4 gallons of 140-160 proof is meant to be drank during the next 7 months until I pick back up again with a new rig.

the rest is for aging. It's the only way I know to not mess with the aging stock- make so friggin much I can't share it fast enough :crazy:

thats on a 16 gallon with 2" column btw
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Honest_Liberty wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:50 pm
Toxxyc wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:09 pm I actually have some whisky and rum (store bought) to keep me going, so I'm really going to let that one sit. Forget about it.
you are a stronger man that I. I made 28 gallons this year (that would be after aging and proofing down to 86-90 proof), of which 4 gallons of 140-160 proof is meant to be drank during the next 7 months until I pick back up again with a new rig.

the rest is for aging. It's the only way I know to not mess with the aging stock- make so friggin much I can't share it fast enough :crazy:

thats on a 16 gallon with 2" column btw
See I need a bigger boiler my 8 gallon is fine for spirit runs but I need to make larger strips
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Durhommer wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:15 pm
Honest_Liberty wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:50 pm
Toxxyc wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:09 pm I actually have some whisky and rum (store bought) to keep me going, so I'm really going to let that one sit. Forget about it.
you are a stronger man that I. I made 28 gallons this year (that would be after aging and proofing down to 86-90 proof), of which 4 gallons of 140-160 proof is meant to be drank during the next 7 months until I pick back up again with a new rig.

the rest is for aging. It's the only way I know to not mess with the aging stock- make so friggin much I can't share it fast enough :crazy:

thats on a 16 gallon with 2" column btw
See I need a bigger boiler my 8 gallon is fine for spirit runs but I need to make larger strips
anywhere near Colorado? I'll sell my 16 gallon, 2" column, dephleg, pump, hoses, 5' with all copper packing 1/2 new, and a 24 gallon fermenter and 10 gallon Igloo HD cooler for $400. It has everything you need to run it on propane. I have over $800 into it
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Ehh I have a keg to run propane
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Durhommer wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:41 pm Ehh I have a keg to run propane
ah nice, so you can turn that into a stripping rig? I've thought about keeping the 16 gallon for spirits but actually I'm just going to do enough strips on the 26 gallon to fill er up at 40% low wines
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Toxxyc »

I haven't thought about that whisky for a while now, actually. Pretty impressed with myself. Think I need to make some more washes though.

Quick Q - when aging rum, would it be the same process as whisky? Simply taking hearts, water down to ~120 proof and dump it in a jar with some oak?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Toxxyc wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:02 pm I haven't thought about that whisky for a while now, actually. Pretty impressed with myself. Think I need to make some more washes though.

Quick Q - when aging rum, would it be the same process as whisky? Simply taking hearts, water down to ~120 proof and dump it in a jar with some oak?
not that I know much, but what I'm fairly confident is that you don't char the oak. IIRC, it just gets toasted?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by River Rat »

I'm going to try rum soon for the first time, so I've been reading up on that. Opinions seem to be split down the middle. Some folks say charred wood takes away from the rum flavor and makes it more like a bourbon. Others swear by toasting and charring for their rum. Looks like your best option (and mine) is to try both and see what we like best.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Char is for bourbon.......Rum does better on medium toast imo.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Honest_Liberty wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:16 pm
Durhommer wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:41 pm Ehh I have a keg to run propane
ah nice, so you can turn that into a stripping rig? I've thought about keeping the 16 gallon for spirits but actually I'm just going to do enough strips on the 26 gallon to fill er up at 40% low wines
I haven't yet ran on propane due to neighbor constraints I dont want them in the business but I've been saving coins for a few months thinking of taking that money and buying the ferrules and the welding
I age my rum on toasted oak and it looks good so far
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Toxxyc »

OK so it's been a month since I jarred the whisky with the oaks in there. I've been busy and it helps. I haven't touched the jar, but this weekend I noticed it with a friend visiting so I decided to give it a smell.

It's really improving well, even after only a month. I'm impressed. Patience pays off. I'll let it sit for a while longer still.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Toxxyc »

Toxxyc wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:10 pm OK so it's been a month since I jarred the whisky with the oaks in there. I've been busy and it helps. I haven't touched the jar, but this weekend I noticed it with a friend visiting so I decided to give it a smell.

It's really improving well, even after only a month. I'm impressed. Patience pays off. I'll let it sit for a while longer still.
Pretty much another month later and curiosity got the better of me. Last weekend we got some friends over and I showed the guy my whisky-in-making. I opened the jar as he wanted to smell and to my surprise this stuff is starting to change. I honestly expected it to be taking much, much longer than this, but the smell definitely changed.

So the past weekend I couldn't help myself, grabbed a stainless steel straw and used it like a wine thief to pull maybe 5ml from the jar. Dropped it into a tiny tiny shot glass I have around here (works awesome for tasters), added a bit of clean RO water to water it down to tasting and set it aside to blend for minute. Then I tasted.

Suddenly the raw distilled spirit flavour is fading. A lot. The punch-in-your-face oakiness that I was worried would lead to overoaking is dropping away and revealing just a nice, mellow oak flavour. The drink itself, even when I watered it down to around 30%, was relatively rich with great legs forming on the glass and both the nose and the taste has a classic cheap Scotch note to it (sweet, slightly floral). From the piece of charred oak I dropped in there a tiny tiny bit of ash comes though, but in a good way.

I sealed up the jar and hid it away again. Age is amazing. I can't wait to get more liquor in jars and on oak!
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:06 pm Char is for bourbon.......Rum does better on medium toast imo.
Windy City does his rum on used bourbon barrels and its top notch. Probably any 'new' wood would be a bit much for rum, charred or toasted. Both sound good if used wood. Maybe 2 expressions of the same recipe side by side would be fun, toast and char. Or 3, Sherry bbl.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Jimbo wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:29 am Maybe 2 expressions of the same recipe side by side would be fun, toast and char. Or 3, Sherry bbl.
Here are 5 expressions of the same Rum recipe and run, there have been many more in both glass and barrels.
5 rums 18 months..jpg
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Jimbo »

Very nice! Which are your favorite?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Jimbo wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:26 pm Which are your favorite?
Thats like being asked to name a favorite child, for an every day drinker, the stuff that comes from my solera is my favourite.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:11 pm Thats like being asked to name a favorite child, for an every day drinker, the stuff that comes from my solera is my favourite.
Only this morning I learnt about solera ageing and quickly searched the forum to see if anyone was doing it. I'm very far from producing the quantities needed to make it interesting, but it's bookmarked.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Ex Bourbon barrels for my rum as well, so far it's the best way I have found.
After about 3 years it's amazing.
I am trying to get set up to start operating out of my old 30 foot RV, like good ole Walter White only with rum.
So far so good, if slow, slowly getting set up that is.
Cranky's spoonfeeding:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975

Time and Oak will sort it out.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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nerdybrewer wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:30 pm…I am trying to get set up to start operating out of my old 30 foot RV, like good ole Walter White…
:clap: :thumbup:

I’ve been called, “Jesse Pinkman” too because I have a commercial pa set up in my living room.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by BlueSasquatch »

Starting to dive into the barrel so to speak, made five different whiskeys, put them in jars with heavy char oak chips for a short while, they turned out pretty good, but there are strong oak flavors/notes that I just don't get with any commercial drink, its not bad? But not good either. It was 50g for 2/5 gallon, I'd say about 2 months.

Last batch was the same whiskey but used CUBES and went with a medium char, also French, American and Hungarian, to see any noticeable differences. It's been 6 weeks on that, using 8 cubes 1/2" in size, just under 1/5 gallon each. Sampled a taste this morning and it's got those same oak notes as the chips.

I have 1.5 gallons of that Honey Bear Bourbon in an oak barrel, and it's been 6 months, and it doesn't carry the same notes.

Is this because chips/cubes are no match for a barrel? Did I leave them in to long? Sealing the containers with chips/cubes a bad move? The barrel is "open" to the atmosphere in a sense, well more-so than a jar with a lid.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Hambone »

Spirits on oak IMO go through an “awkward” phase early on. I generally like oaked spirits better after about a year. That’s on glass with charred sticks. I do use natural cork to seal, some atmospheric effect can occur, but less than a barrel

Just last night I diluted a corn whiskey that was on sticks for one year. I’d tasted a sip now and then over the summer and fall, and early on it was NOT blowing my skirt up. But now it’s exceptionally good….
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Jimbo »

Nice work on the Solera SBB!

BlueSasquatch, there's a long list of differences between chips/cubes and a bbl, not just the environmental exposure and thirsty angels. Here's a few off my head, but Im sure Im missing several
  • Some bbl producers charge more for longer aged wood. Aging reduces tannins and other compounds in the wood. No guarentee if your chips/cubes base wood was ever aged
  • chips/cubes expose a lot of end grain. The pores in oak are full of a white resin that is exposed in end grain much more than in staves
  • char levels have a huge impact. the thicker the wood the more varied the gradation of caramelization of the wood sugars from the surface down
  • Of course, evaporation in a bbl, oxidation etc
Ive had good luck with wood sticks made from used Jack Daniels bbls. (planters at the Home Depot etc). You know the wood is good, cut the staves into sticks, rechar with a propane torch or over yoru campfire and soak in water a couple hours. I use 1"X1"X5" stick per quart. Never had good luck with chips.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Jimbo wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:39 am Nice work on the Solera SBB!

BlueSasquatch, there's a long list of differences between chips/cubes and a bbl, not just the environmental exposure and thirsty angels. Here's a few off my head, but Im sure Im missing several
  • Some bbl producers charge more for longer aged wood. Aging reduces tannins and other compounds in the wood. No guarentee if your chips/cubes base wood was ever aged
  • chips/cubes expose a lot of end grain. The pores in oak are full of a white resin that is exposed in end grain much more than in staves
  • char levels have a huge impact. the thicker the wood the more varied the gradation of caramelization of the wood sugars from the surface down
  • Of course, evaporation in a bbl, oxidation etc
Ive had good luck with wood sticks made from used Jack Daniels bbls. (planters at the Home Depot etc). You know the wood is good, cut the staves into sticks, rechar with a propane torch or over yoru campfire and soak in water a couple hours. I use 1"X1"X5" stick per quart. Never had good luck with chips.
Thanks for the run down, I know there is alot to the aging process, I've started listening to some podcasts on the topic, https://bourbonpursuit.com/2020/01/09/2 ... jn0IgkmJPA
This is an interesting one that talks about specific flavors as they relate to toast and char, which I know there are charts for, but he dives into it a bit more.

I also liked the Bad Motivator Barrel thread, explaining how grain orientation effects the travel of spirits inside - outside the barrel.

I'll be giving some Sticks/Spirals a shot next with a Rye heavy Whiskey in a month or so. People mention often using torches to char or toast the wood, does the flame fuel source not impart some flavor? I feel like I can tell the difference between a hot-dog done over a wood fire, vs trash fire, vs propane, vs butane, etc.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Toxxyc wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:54 am OK I'm dropping here as well. I've been distilling for a few months now and while my batches have been tiny, I've had great success with rum, but terrible with whisky.

I got my hands on some untreated, raw French oak from a local woodworking place (they confirmed the wood is raw and untreated), which I chopped into fingers and use from there.

So the first whisky I made I watered down to 65% ABV (because apparently it extracts more desirable flavours) just used a few fingers of oak, toasted in the oven to the sweet level for 2 hours, and slipped them in the whisky. I left them in there for 4 weeks, tasting and smelling and everything along the way. The whisky was so bad I re-distilled it with a next batch. It was flat, plain and unflavoured, almost like the oak didn't produce flavour at all.

The second one I decided to go a bit more "proper", still using 65% spirit, and bought a piece of American Oak, medium+ toasted, and left it uncharred. I cut a piece (according to how it was recommended) and popped it into the spirit. Alongside that I used a finger of each light, medium and heavy toasted oak, as well as a few "spent" fingers that I have used to make an oaked rum with, and dropped them in there as well. The smell was amazing when I dropped it in, and it just went downhill from there. The end result, after 5 weeks, was an absolute oak bomb. There was no sweetness, no flavour, literally just oak. Tasted like sucking on a piece of wood. Some of my friends and family absolutely loved it and freaked out about it (even some wanting to buy a few bottles), but I hated it (was OK with coke, but that's about it). I gave most away and what was left over I redistilled.

So my current batch I watered the spirit down to 55% ABV (figuring it was maybe a bit strong). I then went and bought proper Kentuky Bourbon barrel wood chips, weighed them out and dosed the spirit slightly below the recommended level. I then also took a single finger of new French Oak, decided that I'm not going to toast it at all, and just charred it properly, and dumped it in there. I'm having more hopes for this batch, but I'd like to know what could have caused the issues before?
OK, we're just over 6 months since sticking this all into a glass jar, around 3 litres at 55% ABV. Last weekend I opened the jar for the first time in a long time and it seems to be really getting where I want it to be. I'm going to be transferring the whisky to an ex-sherry mini-cask for a month or two before bottling. I'm really happy with how this one turned out. Sweet, mellow and definitely lacking the tannic oak that I picked up in my previous attempt. Really not bad at all for a run of this, for me, I'd say.

Time to get mashing again, I guess...
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Grundefuht »

Honest_Liberty wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:54 pm You are effectively telling me to calm down and just wait it out 4 years? I'll be surprised?
at October 2017 I calmed down and left my 15 gals barrel with single malt inside.
of'cause I did try it each 2-3 months just to check what is going on inside.
it took 3 years to grow nice single malt whisky
and you will be surprised how fast it grows on 3rd year.
And Yes, it was better fresh than aged for several month

Now i have 3 same barrels at aging process (each year I do new one)
and one more is bottled - enough to feed me until next one gets ready.


I 'm not sure about larger volumes, but 15 gals is ready in 3 years.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by The Baker »

Hi, Grundefuht,

You said, 'Now I have 3 same barrels at aging process (each year I do new one)
and one more is bottled - enough to feed me until next one gets ready.'


You might try a solera.
(Look it up in Google).
When you take (just one) bottle from the oldest barrel, replace it from the next oldest.
Then replace that from the NEXT oldest (which in your case is the youngest;
and replace that from new make or what might be stored in glass...)

(and so on if you had more barrels).

The small addition of newer material to the older barrel is improved by the older material
without adversely affecting that older material.
And it lends consistency to your product.

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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Toxxyc »

Yeah I don't have the time or money to produce enough new make to fill large barrels, the barrels I'm talking about are tiny, I think the one is 2.5l and the other one is 3.5l, so it's going to be in there for a short time only. I also first need to get them really clean. The smaller one is nice and swelled now, and now it's just a matter of getting it nice and clean on the inside. I'm planning a quick boiling water rinse and then also the addition of some Sodium Percarbonate just to make sure everything that can spoil, is dead. I'll then rinse it with cold water before introducing the whisky. Does that sound about like the process I should follow?

The barrels are dirty, dusty and someone waxed it on the inside, so it's full of pieces of wax. At some stage it stood with water in it as well for a long time, so I'm expecting some mould on the inside (although it generally looks OK), which I want to get off with the SPC.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by subbrew »

Toxxyc wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:41 am Y I'm planning a quick boiling water rinse and then also the addition of some Sodium Percarbonate just to make sure everything that can spoil, is dead.
You are going to put approximately 120 proof alcohol in the barrel, anything that can spoil will be dead. The water to rinse out floaties sounds good but I am not sure you need the SPC. Just seems like something else that might get in a crack in the wood and not get rinsed out.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Grundefuht »

The Baker wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:15 pm Hi, Grundefuht,
...
You might try a solera.
...
Geoff
Thank you for your advice.
That "solera" tech might make some sense. since my plan is to feed my own needs.

I think I'm going to make a second aging line that way.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by The Baker »

Grundefuht wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:22 am
The Baker wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 7:15 pm Hi, Grundefuht,
...
You might try a solera.
...
Geoff
Thank you for your advice.
That "solera" tech might make some sense. since my plan is to feed my own needs.

I think I'm going to make a second aging line that way.
If you have more barrels, for aging the same product, rather than a second aging line I
would add more barrels to the solera! Extend it.

Geoff
The Baker
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