Honest_Liberty wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:41 pm
I don't have the trust in small aging. I want to source a quality barrel and fill it, so I can know. That's my aim
I humbly suggest that you research.
There are many actual commercial distilleries already using smaller barrels.
Such as the place I bought my once used Bourbon barrels, 15 gallon size.
Oola in Seattle is the place
They make a high quality Bourbon and they use 15 gallon barrels.
I used one to age my current batch of Panela rum, the 2017.
It is very good, if we were closer geographically I'd share.
I just suggest before committing to a 15 to 20 year aging process in a 55 gallon barrel that you check it out, I mean there's a lot that can happen in that amount of time.
See what real micro distilleries are using, in the case of Oola it's 15 gallon virgin white oak barrels for their Bourbon.
A 15 gallon barrel seemed the right size for what I wanted and how much time I wanted to commit to aging my rum.
Turns out that was a very good choice.
Honest_Liberty wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:41 pm
I don't have the trust in small aging. I want to source a quality barrel and fill it, so I can know. That's my aim
I humbly suggest that you research.
There are many actual commercial distilleries already using smaller barrels.
Such as the place I bought my once used Bourbon barrels, 15 gallon size.
Oola in Seattle is the place
They make a high quality Bourbon and they use 15 gallon barrels.
I used one to age my current batch of Panela rum, the 2017.
It is very good, if we were closer geographically I'd share.
I just suggest before committing to a 15 to 20 year aging process in a 55 gallon barrel that you check it out, I mean there's a lot that can happen in that amount of time.
See what real micro distilleries are using, in the case of Oola it's 15 gallon virgin white oak barrels for their Bourbon.
A 15 gallon barrel seemed the right size for what I wanted and how much time I wanted to commit to aging my rum.
Turns out that was a very good choice.
Of course - you do you.
+1 There are countless micro distilleries using 5, 10, and 15 gallon oak barrels with great success.
H_L if you're really destined to start a DSP, it would be wise to read some of the papers written on aging spirits in small barrels. Talk to some of the distilleries in your area. I'm sure they started off filling 5, 10 and 15 gallon barrels to shorten the time between barreling and getting products to market. They're also a great way to see what a test mash will mature into without committing to a 1000 gallons of mash.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
I just tested my (what I thought was loose cut) first AG high oat, high rye bourbon. Been a month or so and it's all oak.
It's the same old story I've noticed with oak stick aging.
Even with following the T-Pee way. It's just all oak tea. I know the oak is good because I cleaned, toasted, and charred a used half wine barrel.
My wife did say it actually smelled like bourbon, which is good I suppose, but it doesn't to me. It smells like woodsmoke and sweetness and tastes the same.
My brandies are all on track, however, to be as good as any I've tasted, and that's a pretty bold statement. I'm not sure why but with Brandy, the maple syrup sweetness is prominent. I've only recently started truly appreciating Brandy.
But with Bourbon, I can already tell, I have to go into the darn acetone notes to pull the flavor profile I'm used to. It's pretty frustrating because I thought I could make a cleaner product than commercial and still arrive at a real bourbon experience.
I'm more confused than when I began. Maybe a few years in the jar will actually bring out an actual bourbon profile and this is just the first rough stage. I've read conflicting information but it appears "dirty" or very loose cuts are required to make the full bouquet and complexity
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste
My SF tasted like crap after a month. But I stayed the course and put it back in the cupboard. It's 5 months on oak now and getting better. The charred, smokiness has faded. Faint vanilla and a little wet tobacco are most of what I get right now on the nose. Still tastes like a cheap bourbon, so it's gonna stay in the dark cupboard until it gets right.
Try this; pull off a jar, 2/3 full and let it sit without oak for a month and compare that with what's still on oak.
Give it time. It will come around.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
Honest_Liberty wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:29 am
I'm really struggling with oak...My wife did say it actually smelled like bourbon...but it doesn't to me.
...with Bourbon... I have to go into the darn acetone notes to pull the flavor profile I'm used to....I thought I could make a cleaner product than commercial and still arrive at a real bourbon experience.
I've read...."dirty" or very loose cuts are required to make the full bouquet and complexity.
Well, maybe your paradigm is wrong. Maybe you’re just used to drinking really cheap whiskey. It sounds like you need to shake some “change” out of your pockets and go buy a bottle of top shelf whiskey to try. Adjust your “target” and you may actually be closer than YOU think.
I like grain flavors in my bourbon, but that does not mean I like heads in them. Tight cuts will result in a better product, although I do add some of the late hearts or early tails to the cask for grain flavor enhancement. But I despise the headache-producing, solventy sweetness from a lot of the commercial products. I’m over it!
And, with a whiskey, you must give it time to mature. “Fast tracking” by nuclear aging is not going to do justice to your product. It’ll get you cheap drinkin’ liquor quickly, but it won’t be the quality of a 10 year old whiskey.
If you’ve got small children in your house, then just wait for the whiskey to age until they’re out of high school. Then tell us how it tastes.
ss
Honest_Liberty wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:29 am
I'm really struggling with oak...My wife did say it actually smelled like bourbon...but it doesn't to me.
...with Bourbon... I have to go into the darn acetone notes to pull the flavor profile I'm used to....I thought I could make a cleaner product than commercial and still arrive at a real bourbon experience.
I've read...."dirty" or very loose cuts are required to make the full bouquet and complexity.
Well, maybe your paradigm is wrong. Maybe you’re just used to drinking really cheap whiskey. It sounds like you need to shake some “change” out of your pockets and go buy a bottle of top shelf whiskey to try. Adjust your “target” and you may actually be closer than YOU think.
I like grain flavors in my bourbon, but that does not mean I like heads in them. Tight cuts will result in a better product, although I do add some of the late hearts or early tails to the cask for grain flavor enhancement. But I despise the headache-producing, solventy sweetness from a lot of the commercial products. I’m over it!
And, with a whiskey, you must give it time to mature. “Fast tracking” by nuclear aging is not going to do justice to your product. It’ll get you cheap drinkin’ liquor quickly, but it won’t be the quality of a 10 year old whiskey.
If you’ve got small children in your house, then just wait for the whiskey to age until they’re out of high school. Then tell us how it tastes.
ss
Well, we had been given orphan barrel Rhetoric 20 year old as a gift for closing our second home from our realtor. I hated it. Pure acetone. Those things are over $400 from what I researched.
I enjoy Woodford Reserve, but generally I don't spend more than $50 on either scotch or bourbon. I still can't find anything I enjoy much more than old Glenmorangie 10, especially for the price. I like Islay's but again, I'm good with Ardbeg and laphroaig standard expressions.
I don't nuclear age. I believe the time is critical, but I'm concerned that the way this tastes after one month or a month and half is indicative of what to expect.
You are effectively telling me to calm down and just wait it out 4 years? I'll be surprised? I'm going to do that for sure, and continue to keep making all grain.
I really enjoy the all grain tight cut Bourbon white. Straight corn on the nose, a little rye bite and oat softness. It's incredible
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste
Honest_Liberty wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 pm
Do you have a suggestion for a high end bourbon you think I will appreciate that doesn't contain the heads?
H_L check out Whiskey Tribe on YouTube for recommendations on store-bought stuff. When you see their whiskey vault, you'll be jealous... (I know I was)
I haven't bought any for myself yet, but Woodford Reserve is in my immediate future. I see you're in the U.S. and you mentioned high rye bourbon, so see if Redemption's High Rye Bourbon is stocked near you - it's pretty tasty. And if you're a rye lover like me, see if you can get your hands on Rittenhouse - it's very yummy for a reasonable price.
A recommendation I've seen somewhere on the site is to let your AG stuff age and then use the sugarheads for short horizon consumption (Odin's Rye Bread is a fav of mine!).
.
Keep learning & enjoy! I know I am still at the front end of that learning curve.
Duck
There are two times of year: FOOTBALL SEASON and... Waiting For Football Season
Honest_Liberty wrote: ↑Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 pm
Do you have a suggestion for a high end bourbon you think I will appreciate that doesn't contain the heads?
H_L check out Whiskey Tribe on YouTube for recommendations on store-bought stuff. When you see their whiskey vault, you'll be jealous... (I know I was)
I haven't bought any for myself yet, but Woodford Reserve is in my immediate future. I see you're in the U.S. and you mentioned high rye bourbon, so see if Redemption's High Rye Bourbon is stocked near you - it's pretty tasty. And if you're a rye lover like me, see if you can get your hands on Rittenhouse - it's very yummy for a reasonable price.
A recommendation I've seen somewhere on the site is to let your AG stuff age and then use the sugarheads for short horizon consumption (Odin's Rye Bread is a fav of mine!).
.
Keep learning & enjoy! I know I am still at the front end of that learning curve.
Duck
Sugar heads off your AG mash could also be a good way to track your aging AG spirits. If you put oak sticks in the SH at the same ratio as the AG, could you not sample along as it matures knowing that what ever impact the oak is having on the sugar head, its also having on the much better AG spirit? This way, you dont drink all your nectar before it reaches its full potential.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
OK I'm dropping here as well. I've been distilling for a few months now and while my batches have been tiny, I've had great success with rum, but terrible with whisky.
I got my hands on some untreated, raw French oak from a local woodworking place (they confirmed the wood is raw and untreated), which I chopped into fingers and use from there.
So the first whisky I made I watered down to 65% ABV (because apparently it extracts more desirable flavours) just used a few fingers of oak, toasted in the oven to the sweet level for 2 hours, and slipped them in the whisky. I left them in there for 4 weeks, tasting and smelling and everything along the way. The whisky was so bad I re-distilled it with a next batch. It was flat, plain and unflavoured, almost like the oak didn't produce flavour at all.
The second one I decided to go a bit more "proper", still using 65% spirit, and bought a piece of American Oak, medium+ toasted, and left it uncharred. I cut a piece (according to how it was recommended) and popped it into the spirit. Alongside that I used a finger of each light, medium and heavy toasted oak, as well as a few "spent" fingers that I have used to make an oaked rum with, and dropped them in there as well. The smell was amazing when I dropped it in, and it just went downhill from there. The end result, after 5 weeks, was an absolute oak bomb. There was no sweetness, no flavour, literally just oak. Tasted like sucking on a piece of wood. Some of my friends and family absolutely loved it and freaked out about it (even some wanting to buy a few bottles), but I hated it (was OK with coke, but that's about it). I gave most away and what was left over I redistilled.
So my current batch I watered the spirit down to 55% ABV (figuring it was maybe a bit strong). I then went and bought proper Kentuky Bourbon barrel wood chips, weighed them out and dosed the spirit slightly below the recommended level. I then also took a single finger of new French Oak, decided that I'm not going to toast it at all, and just charred it properly, and dumped it in there. I'm having more hopes for this batch, but I'd like to know what could have caused the issues before?
Toxxyc wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:54 am....I've been distilling for a few months now and while my batches have been tiny, I've had great success with rum, but terrible with whisky....I'm having more hopes for this batch, but I'd like to know what could have caused the issues before?
Simple......impatience! 4 or 5 weeks on wood is not enough time. In fact, 1 to 3 months aging is about the worst time to expect “good flavor”. Use less wood for a longer duration and you’ll have much better results. Give it a year to begin with and then you can sample it and see how much longer you’ll need.
ss
Yeah I've now, in the new batch, cut back drastically with the woods and I'm planning on leaving it a bit longer.
On a side note - I've seen some people make good whiskies in a matter of weeks, without the use of microwaves or heat/cool cycles. How does that work? I'm in South Africa so it's quite temperature swinging around here, so that should speed up the process a bit, no?
Toxxyc wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:54 am....I've been distilling for a few months now and while my batches have been tiny, I've had great success with rum, but terrible with whisky....I'm having more hopes for this batch, but I'd like to know what could have caused the issues before?
Simple......impatience! 4 or 5 weeks on wood is not enough time. In fact, 1 to 3 months aging is about the worst time to expect “good flavor”. Use less wood for a longer duration and you’ll have much better results. Give it a year to begin with and then you can sample it and see how much longer you’ll need.
ss
Less wood being the suggested amount in teepee method, roughly equal to barrel sq in, one 3/4" x 3/4" x 5" toasted and charred? That's what I've been doing
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste
Toxxyc wrote: ↑Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:52 am
Yeah I've now, in the new batch, cut back drastically with the woods and I'm planning on leaving it a bit longer.
On a side note - I've seen some people make good whiskies in a matter of weeks, without the use of microwaves or heat/cool cycles. How does that work? I'm in South Africa so it's quite temperature swinging around here, so that should speed up the process a bit, no?
What are you calling whisky? By that I mean, what recipe are you using and what are your cuts? The newmake should be good enough to drink white, if you want to consume it younger, so your base will have to be good and your cuts conservative.
I call it whisky only after adding the oak. My newmake this time around is good enough to drink as-is, and I made more conservative cuts than before. The newmake was pretty good, so I'm having high hopes for this one. So far the colour is still pretty light, but I had a tiny taste test just to make sure and it's definitely better than before. Definitely. Maybe my process is just improving to the point where it's now showing in the spirit?
Tox I agree with SS ....your main problem is lack of patience, four weeks isn't even a beginning to oaking something, there is a reason that the big distillery's store stuff in barrels for years on end. The other thing to remember is that a little oak for a long time is much better than a lot / to much for a short time.
Yeah I think that was my main issue. I saw some guys who made whisky in a month, mostly on YouTube and then rave on about how great it is. This one I'll just let sit. It's got the recommended amount of oak in there, so I'm going to let it sit. There's no rushing it. I'll make rum if I need something sooner. Guess I can also try making gin?
Toxxyc wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:13 am
Yeah I think that was my main issue. I saw some guys who made whisky in a month, mostly on YouTube and then rave on about how great it is. This one I'll just let sit. It's got the recommended amount of oak in there, so I'm going to let it sit. There's no rushing it. I'll make rum if I need something sooner. Guess I can also try making gin?
This recommendation I've seen on various other threads about oak & aging: let you AG sit untouched, and then use sugarheads from your AG brew dregs as your quick-turnaround consumption inventory.
Totally realize that is easier said than done!!!
Duck
There are two times of year: FOOTBALL SEASON and... Waiting For Football Season
Yeah I'm notoriously impatient, that I know. I have made a few rums before and they were REALLY good, so I think that's what I'll do. I took that whisky and stuck it way at the back of the pantry. Dated and marked the container so I know exactly what's in there, and there it'll stay. I have successfully aged meads for up to 2 years that way. Let's see...
Toxxyc wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:13 am
I saw some guys who made whisky in a month, mostly on YouTube and then rave on about how great it is.
When will you guys learn that Youtube is a really good place to pick up bad distilling habits and bad information?
Newbs are turning up every day with wierd arse ideas that they saw / heard on Youtube.......then we have to try to set it straight.
The other bad news is that if you want to make really good rum your going to have to oak it for more than a month to.......a lot, lot longer.
Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:51 pmThe other bad news is that if you want to make really good rum your going to have to oak it for more than a month to.......a lot, lot longer.
Rum I'm making I like to spice, not specifically oak. It might not be really good - but I love it. Oh and regarding YouTube - you don't really know it is bad and wrong until you know, you know...
Yep even white off the still isn't bad, I've found... (Sorry Coca-Cola)
To cheat, and for the interim, I've been trying out different types of those "spirit flavourings" to flavour my spirit and I've had mixed results. I found the Still Spirit's Jamaican black rum one OK, but I ended up sticking some oak in that and also spiced it, and now it's WAY better.
I haven't found even a half-decent whisky flavouring though. I'm still trying.
Yeah I'm starting to think that same thing. The last one I bought (the Jamaican rum one) was highly recommended, from a well-known brand, and raved about by many. The smell was pretty much sweet caramel, with NO notes of molasses, the burnt sugar you should get from rum, no nothing. Just caramel. Smelled just like syrup, with no depth and no complexity.
Biggest thing I found though is that it didn't hide anything in the spirit. I used a pretty good new make all grain spirit I made with caramel malt and pale malt, distilled 3 times, and the new make was tasty and smooth (albeit with that alcohol bite we know). As I know rums they're smooth, specially when watered down to 43% ABV (like the new make I used for this), but the syrup did nothing to improve that. It was still thin, and you should still taste new make pretty clearly.
So I took that 1l bottle, added 3 allspice berries, a big-ish pinch of aniseed, a single clove and a stick of heavy toasted french oak (virgin), and dumped it in. The spices was removed after 48 hours as I was happy with the flavour but it's still on the oak. The flavour of that rum changed DRASTICALLY, and it's already a much, much better product after only a week.
So yeah, flavourings and syrups - nah. No thanks. Not again, except if I'm going to really push for volume fast and I can duplicate what I made with this last batch.
Oh yes, and on to the whisky. I sealed the jar I'm aging in and stuck it way at the top rear of the pantry. It's out of sight, out of mind now. It helps my impatience. I've managed to age meads for 18 months+ like that before, so that's what I'm doing now.
Toxxyc wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:10 pm....The last one I bought (the Jamaican rum one) was highly recommended, from a well-known brand, and raved about by many. The smell was pretty much sweet caramel, with NO notes of molasses, the burnt sugar you should get from rum, no nothing....
....I used a pretty good new make all grain spirit I made with caramel malt and pale malt, distilled 3 times, and the new make was tasty and smooth (albeit with that alcohol bite we know)... <— Why on earth would you brew a tasty all grain beer and distill it 3 times? It sounds like it would have made a delicious whiskey.
...As I know rums they're smooth, specially when watered down to 43% ABV (like the new make I used for this), but the syrup did nothing to improve that. It was still thin, and you should still taste new make pretty clearly. <— If you want a rum...you’ve got to use molasses. And if you want a big “mouthy” rum, then get some deer-lick molasses from the farm supply store and ferment that. You’ll get more flavor and mouth feel than you’ll know what to do with.
So I took that 1l bottle, added 3 allspice berries, a big-ish pinch of aniseed, a single clove and a stick of heavy toasted french oak (virgin), and dumped it in. The spices was removed after 48 hours as I was happy with the flavour but it's still on the oak. The flavour of that rum changed DRASTICALLY, and it's already a much, much better product after only a week. <— Again, expecting aging to occur in a week is NUTZ! Won’t happen. If you need an “alcohol fix”, then maybe it’s time to head to the package liquor store. You can’t put patience into a bottle...only the calendar will give you the time needed.
So yeah, flavourings and syrups - nah. No thanks. Not again, except if I'm going to really push for volume fast and I can duplicate what I made with this last batch.
Oh yes, and on to the whisky. I sealed the jar I'm aging in and stuck it way at the top rear of the pantry. It's out of sight, out of mind now. It helps my impatience. I've managed to age meads for 18 months+ like that before, so that's what I'm doing now. <—Anybody else want to “take this bet”? I bet it won’t last 6 months.