The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:35 pm

pretender wrote:Of course, thanks for the explanation. I am afraid, however, that the dish I have shown is too conical. The lid can slide out, despite tight fit and swelling. But I'm not sure. On the other hand, I would be inclined to cut the lid equal to the diameter of the vessel, to seal it with silicone gasket. And twisting it in "some" way.
You will find very little support for using silicone as a seal to hold high-ABV spirits on this forum. :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by joeymac » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:12 am

Snackson wrote:
MichiganCornhusker wrote:
Oldvine Zin wrote:Hope that I can keep my hands and tasting thief away for a year
You could go what I did, no tap!
On my latest BadMo I simply cut a round barrel head and put it in with no holes. Only way in will be a drill later.
Been thinking about doing this with a used barrel head. They're selling the Balcones barrel heads for $7.
How thick are those Balcones barrel heads?
For making a smoother whiskey or scotch (with once-used wood), $7 for wood pretoasted and charred sounds too good to pass up.
Just cut out the right size for your pot, pound her in, and hide it away for a year.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by pretender » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:03 pm

I was thinking of such a solution.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by cob » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:46 pm

pretender wrote:I was thinking of such a solution.
tapatalk links don't work. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 35&t=65167
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by pretender » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:38 pm

I've corrected, thank you.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by yakattack » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:44 am

The problem with that is the way the grain is orientated in the wood. By having the head on top of the barrel ( ss bucket in your case, the end grain is exposed. This is the part of the wood that is most porus. This mean even if you get your gasket to seal ( which I have my doubts about since you should only use ptfe and that is going to be a bugger to get to seal. ) you will still have a very high rate of loss ( evaporation, angels share) as opposed to having the head inside the barrel where the end grais are sealed against the side of the barrel.

Your problem is an easy one. Honestly.

1.cut barrel head to size of the outside of the bucket. This will be very close to actual size. Using whatever means you have create your taper on the head to match the. Bucket. Sand until the head sits flush with the end of the bucket with just pushing it in.
3) take very fine sand paper and make sure the head is as smooth as possible and as even as possible.

4 install head, using another block to spread the load drive the head in until she is seated and isn't popping back up.

In side walls drill 4 holes just above the head ( as flush as you can get.) And insert some wood dowels to keep the head from poppING up as it swells and seales.

BadMOs process is more detailed and since he already wrote it out and even pointed you too it I figure you can get all the specifics of what I'm talking about by doing that same process. Just make these small changes to adapt what you have.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by pretender » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:24 am

After consultation, the selection fell on a 219mm pipe. Two wooden barrel head with two sides. Badmo
in your project is not enough wood? Should not it be more?

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:53 am

pretender wrote:After consultation, the selection fell on a 219mm pipe. Two wooden barrel head with two sides. Badmo
in your project is not enough wood? Should not it be more?
On page 1 of this thread I discuss the surface area of the wood to volume of spirit ratio. In my barrels the SA/V is similar to a standard large barrel.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by pretender » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:02 am

I know, but you write that SA / V in 6qt is 43. How? SA / V is the ratio between the surface (wood) and the volume (distillate), right? Calculating it all comes out that at r = 9.2 cm V = 265.77 cm2 or about 41.20 sqin. Did I misunderstand something?

Thank you for your understanding: D

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by joeymac » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:14 am

My guess is a 6qt bain marie, with 1.25" of wood smashed into it, no longer holds a full 6 qts.
"Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks" - God (Isaiah 5:22)
So evidently, God wants us to drink our whiskeys single barrel and our Bourbons neat.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by ShineRunner » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:24 am

pretender wrote:I know, but you write that SA / V in 6qt is 43. How? SA / V is the ratio between the surface (wood) and the volume (distillate), right? Calculating it all comes out that at r = 9.2 cm V = 265.77 cm2 or about 41.20 sqin. Did I misunderstand something?

Thank you for your understanding: D
When you insert the wood, you lose volume inside the Bain Marie.. hence, higher SA/V ratio.

Edit: what joeymac said.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:08 am

joeymac wrote:My guess is a 6qt bain marie, with 1.25" of wood smashed into it, no longer holds a full 6 qts.
Yup. Also, remember the bit about how the SA/V changes in a barrel as the level of the spirit drops? It does not change in a badmotivator barrel as the level of the spirit drops. Furthermore, for any fill level in a badmotivator barrel other than completely full, you can increase the SA/V by just tilting it forward.

There are a lot of moving parts here, but I know that these barrels are in the neighborhood of the correct number.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by nerdybrewer » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:35 am

Badmotivator wrote:
joeymac wrote:My guess is a 6qt bain marie, with 1.25" of wood smashed into it, no longer holds a full 6 qts.
Yup. Also, remember the bit about how the SA/V changes in a barrel as the level of the spirit drops? It does not change in a badmotivator barrel as the level of the spirit drops. Furthermore, for any fill level in a badmotivator barrel other than completely full, you can increase the SA/V by just tilting it forward.

There are a lot of moving parts here, but I know that these barrels are in the neighborhood of the correct number.
Forgive me if this has been discussed, the thread is long and I admit I haven't read all of it.

Have you considered a SS container with oak at both ends?
Doubling the amount of wood contacting the spirit?
Not sure if there are SS containers out there that would work for this but it's an interesting idea.
Cranky's spoonfeeding:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975

Time and Oak will sort it out.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:34 pm

nerdybrewer wrote: Forgive me if this has been discussed, the thread is long and I admit I haven't read all of it.

Have you considered a SS container with oak at both ends?
Doubling the amount of wood contacting the spirit?
Not sure if there are SS containers out there that would work for this but it's an interesting idea.
There is some mention of doing this earlier in the thread. But why do it? My goal was to approximate the conditions in a large oak barrel, not a small one with higher SA/V. Double barrel heads means double work, double the risk of leaks, you don't get the benefit of the tapered can, and it might even cost more. I'm open to the idea if someone else want to try it, but I'm pretty much sold on this model until I'm compelled to change my mind. :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by bitter » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:32 pm

Bad why not make one unit with oak cut to fit to the far end of the bottom of the stainless. This would result in more oak contact but no more breathing so the angels do not get greedy..

Another option would be to have an access port int he top were you could put oak sticks in. If a small holes was drilled and then swaged an opening.. for a plug this might be doable.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Stargazer14 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:59 pm

bitter wrote:Bad why not make one unit with oak cut to fit to the far end of the bottom of the stainless. This would result in more oak contact but no more breathing so the angels do not get greedy..

B
Because it doesnt look as good! (Plus breathing is actually good.)

Image

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by bitter » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:43 pm

Too much surface area results in the angels become drunks ;) and less for you.

Some breathing is good.. too much can oxidize your whiskey too much. Its a fine balance. I like my whiskey 1-2 years old.. At 2 years in a small barrel if there is anything left it would way over oaked.

I think these units are a nice compromise. Can still age a reasonable amount of time, decreased angel share and less chance of over oaking.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:29 pm

Wait, why are we adding more wood again? :)

In the introductory post of this thread, I wrote, "Large oak barrels are the gold standard for long-term aging of brown spirits." I still believe that. Now, if you believe you can make better spirits with more oak, s'okay with me. If you believe you can make fine spirits faster with more oak, s'okay too. I haven't been convinced yet that either of those strategies work. My preference is to use the same amount of oak per spirit volume as those large oak barrels, or as near as I can get.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by HDNB » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:44 pm

just a dumb thought rolling through ...but if'n you want more wood, why not just throw in the x number of cubes you want before putting the front/head plate on? no holes to drill, no extra plates to fit the bottom, no plugs.
just sayin'... no one but you is gonna know if there is extra in there. different woods, maybe a vanilla bean, whatever.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by pretender » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:48 am

I will not agree with you. In your SA / V barrels is about 8, + -1. In a barrel of 200l SA / V it is 33.
I absolutely do not want to flutter, I try to understand it.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:52 am

pretender wrote:I will not agree with you. In your SA / V barrels is about 8, + -1. In a barrel of 200l SA / V it is 33.
I absolutely do not want to flutter, I try to understand it.
My larger barrels hold 6.13 liters. The head has a radius of 10 cm, for an area of 314 cm2. This gives a SA/V ratio of 51 cm2 / liter.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by pretender » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:23 pm

Available in tables, the conversion factor is in square inches, not centimeters.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by MichiganCornhusker » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:12 pm

You are a very patient man, Badmotivator.

Y'all can put anything you want in your BadMo, I put whiskey in mine.
Put in more oak if you like, any shape or size. Put in some cloves, or honey, or red hots.
Heck, put some guava and canary wood sticks to see what that does.

But as a great place to oak and age your spirits the BadMo barrel works just fine as presented.
It ain't broke, no need to fix anything here.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by pretender » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:03 pm

Do not get used to me, try to understand it, count. But as you can see, despite the fact that it can be calculated, however, better to experience the experience, in this case badmo. And as you write, you can always throw in extra wood. Besides, if I manage to make such a barrel, then I would like to tempt myself next time about a lid of fruity wood such as apple, cherry,

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:35 pm

Ah, some light! There IS some utility in adding extra wood if you are planning to use a fruit wood like pretender's apple or cherry. Here's my thinking:

Oak has an acceptable loss rate. Perhaps it's ideal. Who knows? But I don't know anything about the loss rate through other woods. My guess is that many other woods will have a higher loss rate, thicknesses being equal. We could experiment by making an array of barrel heads with different woods and different thicknesses, fill them with new make, wait a month or a year, measure the loss, and have some good data. I'll leave that work for someone else to do though. But if we have some fairly neutral used oak, such as from a retired wine barrel, we can use that wood for the barrel head to get the oxidation we need with no fear of great losses, but insert other wood into the barrel for flavor.

But wait a minute. We could just age the spirit in a neutral barrel until it has matured, say a year or two, and then take it out and add other woods afterwards, in any glass container.

Hmmm.

Anyway, that's not my project right now. I am struggling to keep up production of the boring conventional badmotivator barrels I already make. :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Dallywolf » Mon May 15, 2017 6:48 pm

Very interesting! Have you tried to split a batch between a BadMo and Glass with toasted sticks to see what the flavor difference is between the final product?

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by rubber duck » Mon May 15, 2017 8:55 pm

I have one his barles, or fake barrel stainless things. So far it's pretty good. The bung leaks a bit but I fixed that with candle wax. I'm not completely sold but I'm going to buy some more at full price. It's a good option for the home distiller. I think he is on to somthing.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Tue May 16, 2017 12:40 am

Dallywolf wrote:Very interesting! Have you tried to split a batch between a BadMo and Glass with toasted sticks to see what the flavor difference is between the final product?
Thanks! Nope. I am convinced that the enterprise is worthwhile though, for these main reasons: 1) I have aged in sealed glass with oak spirals, and the spirit basically did not mature to my satisfaction, or detection for that matter, 2) I have aged in badmo barrels and the spirit matures wonderfully; the raw character diminishes steadily as it should, 3) they SHOULD work in a manner very similar to a large oak barrel, 4) I have the oak and the cans and the spigots and the tooling all ready to go for more, and 5) they look awesome in large numbers in my cellar and I'm proud of them. :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Tue May 16, 2017 12:57 am

rubber duck wrote:I have one his barles, or fake barrel stainless things. So far it's pretty good. The bung leaks a bit but I fixed that with candle wax. I'm not completely sold but I'm going to buy some more at full price. It's a good option for the home distiller. I think he is on to somthing.
Thanks, RD. Hey, your barrel is coming up on a year old now, right?

Since I made your barrel (#13) I have decided to go with the larger cans only, for the sake of economy. I have also made some improvements in the construction: I switched to a custom angled circle cutting jig on my router table for more precisely-fitting head shaping, I added a thin layer of melted beeswax between each stave and around the "croze" which reduced seepage to nothing on almost every barrel, and I now clamp the head into place rather than pounding the bejeezus out of it with a mallet.

I'm not sure what I can do about the little seeps or small amount of staining around the peg. It doesn't bother me much.

Ironically, the barrels I have which show no signs at all of any leaking unnerve me more than the ones which have cried caramel tears. I love the look of the messy ones. :)

I recently started working part time at my wife's business, and have undertaken some special projects there on top of that, so my shop time for barrels has been decimated. I'm way behind on both barrel construction and distilling. Bummer, huh?

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by der wo » Tue May 16, 2017 1:14 am

Badmotivator wrote:
Dallywolf wrote:Very interesting! Have you tried to split a batch between a BadMo and Glass with toasted sticks to see what the flavor difference is between the final product?
Thanks! Nope. I am convinced that the enterprise is worthwhile though, for these main reasons: 1) I have aged in sealed glass with oak spirals, and the spirit basically did not mature to my satisfaction, or detection for that matter, How long did you let the spirals age? Spirals originally for wine? What would mean with a boring even toast and no char. Do you have the same boring toast and no char at your barrels too? Did you let evaporate some angels share a while for example with a pinhole in the lid? 2) I have aged in badmo barrels and the spirit matures wonderfully; the raw character diminishes steadily as it should, 3) they SHOULD work in a manner very similar to a large oak barrel, 4) I have the oak and the cans and the spigots and the tooling all ready to go for more, and 5) they look awesome in large numbers in my cellar and I'm proud of them. :)
badmotivator, perhaps you never brought experimenting with sticks to a quality, which would be fair to compare it with your barrels?
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