What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

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Rod
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What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by Rod »

My stilling is mainly with sugar solution to make neutral which I use to make gin for my wife

I also distill red wine to make brandy which I age on chips

other than that I make home brew , my choice of drink

Quite often I make more neutral than I need and make panty dropper and Sambucca

I have tasted my neutral , as you do , and find little flavour

I do not buy other spirits and have wondered does neutral taste much different that commercial vodka

do not want to buy a bottle for a sip
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by still_stirrin »

hmmm, interesting question. 1st time it’s ever been asked....not!

Fact is, a “neutral” should be without much flavor. Sugar washes can be made neutral, especially if refluxed to high purity. However, the sugar wash based neutral may sometimes have a slight sweetness to it. And to some degree, grain mashes can get close to neutral in profile.

But commercial vodkas are almost always made from grain ferments (wheat, oats, barley, rice, etc.) and often their flavor has remnants of the grain in the profile. It gives the product its distinctive flavor.

A commercial product sometimes used when making spirits is “grain neutral spirits” (GNS). It is bulk produced ond sold to spirit manufacturers to process further, beit vodkas, gins, or even some whiskeys (heaven forbid).

So, the term “neutral” is more generic than the label given to vodka, although they may originate in the same producer’s still.

Does this help clarify the confusion?
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by jb-texshine »

There is some flavor and mouthfeel to vodka but not so much to neutral.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by DAD300 »

TTB Class and Type Designation

Vodka - "Spirits distilled from any material at or above 95% alcohol by volume (190 proof), and if bottled, bottled at not less than 40% alcohol by volume (80 proof)...Neutral spirits distilled or treated after distillation with charcoal or
other materials so as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste or color"

Neutral Spirits -"Spirits distilled from any material at or above 95% alcohol by volume (190 proof), and if bottled, bottled not less than 40% alcohol by volume (80 proof)...Neutral spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain and
stored in oak containers."


The Neutral stored on oak definition is a little weird, most think of Neutral Spirits as clear.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by Bushman »

Dad, I agree that last statement is a little surprising. I will do a little more research and see if our glossary needs updating.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by Bushman »

Ok vodka is not defined in our glossary and since we are trying to explain the difference here I went to several dictionaries for definition of both. Below is what I found on line. Do we want to come up with a concensus and update the glossary?

Neutral
ethanol of 190 or higher proof used especially for blending other alcoholic liquors

Rectified spirit, also known as neutral spirits, rectified alcohol, or ethyl alcohol of agricultural origin is highly concentrated ethanol which has been purified by means of repeated distillation, a process that is called rectification.

Ethyl alcohol distilled at or above 190 proof, often used in blended alcoholic beverages

Vodka
Vodka is a distilled beverage composed primarily of water and ethanol, sometimes with traces of impurities and flavorings. Traditionally, vodka is made by the distillation of cereal grains or potatoes that have been fermented, though some modern brands use other substances, such as fruits or sugar.

an unaged, colorless, distilled spirit, originally made in Russia.

Vodka is a clear, colorless, unaged liquor "made from ethyl alcohol from agricultural origin". It was originally made in Russia from potatoes, but today's vodka, which is almost odorless and tasteless, is usually made from grain, primarily barley and wheat, and occationally from rye.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by bluefish_dist »

The big difference per ttb is that vodka is a spirit distilled to more than 190 proof and without distinctive flavor or aroma, or its charcoal filtered. GNS is simply grain distilled to more than 190 proof.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by jb-texshine »

bluefish_dist wrote:The big difference per ttb is that vodka is a spirit distilled to more than 190 proof and without distinctive flavor or aroma, or its charcoal filtered. GNS is simply grain distilled to more than 190 proof.
Figures with bass ackwards people there. I like bushmans version better and think it should go in glossary and wiki
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

Not really much? Marketing? All vodkas are neutral spirits, but not all neutral spirits are Vodka?

For TTB legal purposes Blue Fish is right on quoting the regs. But again, marketing. You sell "Vodka" to consumers, you buy/sell GNS from/to other businesses.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by Birrofilo »

I've seen the expression "Neutral Vodka" somewhere (as opposed to cereal, non-neutral vodka).
I read somewhere that vodka was probably born in Poland (Wodka), and distilled out of cereals.
When distillation arrived - in the middle ages - in cereals-challenged Russia, Russian begun using anything fermentable to produce vodka, so vodka in Russia was anything made from low-interest raw matter, such as potato skins, or cabbages or whatever, probably half rotten or damaged or uninteresting for human consumption. For what I know, stale bread or milk or anything could go in the broth, provided that it yielded alcohol.

Given the nature of the raw matter, and given that people is not interested in subtle aromas of cabbage or potatoes, the only way to have an interesting drink is to make it as clean as possible.
So ancient Russian vodka is pure ethanol with no flavour. That should be very smooth, without aroma and without "bite". Ethanol is ethanol whatever the raw material.

But countries with a greater grain production than Russia (Ukraine, Poland) did not stop distilling grain and calling it vodka, or wodka. In that case, having a "noble" raw matter, it is natural to preserve some aroma in the final product. So we have this other (and probably more ancient) breed of Vodka, "cereal vodka", which is now again the most common type in supermarkets.

Russian labels, Polish labels, Swedish labels claim their vodka to be made with grains (winter grains, pure arctic water etc.).

That would be called acquavite di cereali in Italy, and probably "white dog" in the USA. It has a "bite" and a hint of cereals.

So "vodka" is quite an ambiguous term at the moment, because it is not any more meant to be neutral, as in the past, but with a varying degree of "flavour", generally not much, but detectable. I don't usually drink much vodka but I rememeber a Swedish vodka which was very "grainy". Other kinds are probably more neutral.

I think we should use "neutral" when we mean "neutral", i.e. basically ethanol and water. In modern markets, vodka is a cereal distillate with a more or less narrow cut, but it is not neutral. Vodka producers compete on taste.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Great post! And good thread to wake up :thumbup:
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by DetroitDIY »

So I'm running my still at the moment; a neutral sugar wash. I'm pulling off at 91.5% after temperature correction.

Does that mean that I'm technically making neither Vodka nor Neutral? Is this just Moonshine?

Sounds a lot less sexy than Vodka, but I suppose it's the taste and not the name that matters. Maybe it just means I have to get better at running a neutral and get making some SPP. :esmile:
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

Spirits distilled from the fermented juice of sugar cane, sugar cane syrup, sugar cane molasses or other sugar cane by-products at less than 95% alcohol by volume (190 proof) having the taste, aroma and characteristics generally attributed to rum and bottled at not less than 40%alcohol by volume (80 proof)

Technically speaking - Rum. https://www.ttb.gov/spirits/bam/chapter4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow It's probably not very "rum like" tasting but it would still qualify as a rum.

Does it matter what the TTB would say? And we're not like the beer folks with the Beer style guide (even though I started one). You can pretty much call it whatever. For me, I would call it a sugarshine neutral. Even though you may not have hit azeo but what difference does it make? People that do not distill would call it vodka. So call it what people will understand so they can understand. Save the technical geekery to fellow distillers.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by tiramisu »

This all depends on whether you are an American with an incredibly long list of specific and detailed rules around what is and isn't something.

Anything proofed to about 96% abv and watered down with your favourite water to 40% might be vodka.

Some people are going to insist potatoes are a minimum requirement.
Wheat and Rye are very popular but so is sugar...

So basically depending on your country Vodka is anything at all watered down to some point that doesn't have much taste to it
Plus an amazing amount of advertising and a fancy label.

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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by HDNB »

in Canada it's NGS until you polish it with charcoal. then it's vodka.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by NZChris »

In my shed, I make the rules.

I have at least two products in my shed that may fit various institutional descriptions of vodka, but that isn't what is written on the demijohns. They become whatever I write on the proofed bottle if I ever draw some off for consumption, but that is rare as the types of products I make using them are much more desirable than the original neutrals/vodkas.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by kiwi Bruce »

I don't know about other countries but commercial Russian Vodka has a small amount of glycerine in it...something like 15 cc per liter.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by HDNB »

kiwi Bruce wrote:I don't know about other countries but commercial Russian Vodka has a small amount of glycerine in it...something like 15 cc per liter.
wow. i made tater's kahlua a while back and it was missing some mouth feel so i added 2 or 3 drops of glycerin to it. smartened it right up...15cc sounds like a lot. dunno if i'd trust a fart after that much lubrication. :lol: :lol: :shock:
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by kiwi Bruce »

From a magazine article in "Art of Drink"...Glycerol in Vodka Results
"This number was an educated guess on what levels of glycerol might be expected. Since vodkas are allowed additives up to 2%, the maximum glycerol content would be 1.5g in 75ml, but more likely in the 1% or less range, which is the “sweet spot” for this titration method."
https://www.artofdrink.com/science/glyc ... ka-results" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

so 1% would be 10 cc per liter.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by DetroitDIY »

Doh! I made my cuts today, blended the keepers, checked the ABV and came out at 94% at 60C. WTF???

Turns out I was misreading my alcometer and counting the top lines as 2 percent when they were actually 1 percent. So, I did better than I thought... but still a bit short of the 95% threshold. None-the-less, I'm happy.

Cheers all!
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by 6 Row Joe »

DetroitDIY wrote:Doh! I made my cuts today, blended the keepers, checked the ABV and came out at 94% at 60C. WTF???

Turns out I was misreading my alcometer and counting the top lines as 2 percent when they were actually 1 percent. So, I did better than I thought... but still a bit short of the 95% threshold. None-the-less, I'm happy.

Cheers all!
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by 6 Row Joe »

I wouldn't consider vodka anything more than about 100 proof. Everclear around here can't be more than 150 proof. A neutral spirit is fairly close to pure alcohol and can be diluted and/or flavored to make any spirit. Just my take on the subject.
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Re: What is the difference between neutral spirit and vodka

Post by nateboussad »

The shape of the various types of single-charge stills (as for Scotch), allows certain flavours to be carried over into the alcohol. The Coffey Still just produces alcohol, almost regardless of the source of the starch - though there too, the distiller can add in more or less of the “heads” and or “tails” to impart flavour.







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