Barrel Aging Water for Proofing

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Something new I just heard about on a podcast (https://www.dalkita.com/distilling-craft-ep-019/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow). How many of you do this? I think for us little guys this could really help our products flavor profile. For me this changes the paradigm of oaking (not aging). You could load up water and totally over oak it and use it more like an oak flavoring versus just proofing. I don't think that this a good replacement for aging on oak, but a good way to keep the wood flavors strong after proofing.

[Expat]

I wouldn't think that would be terribly effective, isn't it primarily the alcohol which leaches out the tannins from the oak?

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Apparently it's a common thing for the larger companies that can afford it. Scotch, Irish, US, everyone does it. He said it gaves a better mouthfeel. I haven't researched it at all so I don't know what would get pull out of the wood or how much. Agree with the Tannins comment, not sure how much would get pulled out.

[Antler24]

Run your stripping runs wayyyy past the tails. Until total combined low wines are 27-28%, it'll add flavour and spirit run should end up right in barrel aging range.

Edited to say, should start with 30% low wines and see where it ends up, then adjust from there on next run.

[Oldvine Zin]

Apparently it's a common thing for the larger companies that can afford it. Scotch, Irish, US, everyone does it. He said it gaves a better mouthfeel. I haven't researched it at all so I don't know what would get pull out of the wood or how much. Agree with the Tannins comment, not sure how much would get pulled out.

Maybe the moldy water gives a bit of mouthfeel

OVZ

[still_stirrin]

...Maybe the moldy water gives a bit of mouthfeel...

A "fuzzy" texture at least.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

So there is a term for it - Breather Barrel. Water + alcohol at 40 proof to stop "fuzzy" growth.

[Oldvine Zin]

Searching around I can't find any reference to Breather Barrels. Also not sure if you are saying the final water is 40 ABV or a barrel full of water is added to some 40%??

OVZ

[Single Malt Yinzer]

I heard the term in this podcast. It's 40 proof water that is stored in the barrel. Not sure how using this quite legit with TTB rules, it seems a little odd.

https://www.dalkita.com/distilling-craft-ep-005/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[kiwi Bruce]

So...in a 20 year old bourbon, at between 45 to 55 ABV, the spirit is oxidized to acetic acid that drops the pH from 5 pH to 3.5 pH and starts producing esters. ( a mid-range proof would be between 100 and 110 proof) but don't barrel age in new oak below 45 ABV (bottle strength) because of Methanol extraction from the charred oak. Part 1 to be continued...
food for thought...acetic acid in the spirit would make ethyl acetate, it's one of the flavor ingredients wine makers look for in their produce...but in the ppt range. Couldn't this be added in the rapid ageing process ? and drop the pH also...I only had time to listen to half of this today, but very interesting. good nite time for a drink ! ! !

[Oldvine Zin]

Hey SMY
Thanks for the link, I'm still looking through the maza_gomez papers to see if this technique is really in use for rum.
Listening to Jason's thoughts on that podcast I'm happy to hear that he is experimenting but his understanding of methanol might be a little askew ??

All good links to post
Thank-you
OVZ

[Oldvine Zin]

So...in a 20 year old bourbon, at between 45 to 55 ABV, the spirit is oxidized to acetic acid that drops the pH from 5 pH to 3.5 pH and starts producing esters. ( a mid-range proof would be between 100 and 110 proof) but don't barrel age in new oak below 45 ABV (bottle strength) because of Methanol extraction from the charred oak. Part 1 to be continued...
food for thought...acetic acid in the spirit would make ethyl acetate, it's one of the flavor ingredients wine makers look for in their produce...but in the ppt range. Couldn't this be added in the rapid ageing process ? and drop the pH also...I only had time to listen to half of this today, but very interesting. good nite time for a drink ! ! !

As a wine maker yes we look for ethyl acetate and try to avoid it in our product, unless you want to make salad dressing.

OVZ

[Single Malt Yinzer]

I am thinking of trying this in a modified way. I have ~4 gallons of mistakes I have sitting in glass. I am going to redistill them to be a neutral as possible. I'll proof down to 40% and put everything into a glass carboy with extra wood and a foam stopper. The purpose is to over oak it at least a bit. Then use this "Breather Barrel" water for proofing.

I don't think I'm going to get this right on the first try. Also not sure on the foam stopper, but I want it to breath. Not sure how else to do it.

[still_stirrin]

I am...Not sure how else to do it.

Well, you could actually put it in a cask, instead of glass. That would help it “breathe”.
ss

[Single Malt Yinzer]

That would be a better solution, but I was going for cheap, even though I didn't actually say it. My fault on that. I do have concerns about the stopper. Not sure how well it's going to hold up.

[Oldvine Zin]

That would be a better solution, but I was going for cheap, even though I didn't actually say it. My fault on that. I do have concerns about the stopper. Not sure how well it's going to hold up.

Maybe a coffee filter or two rubber banded to the top??

OVZ0

[Single Malt Yinzer]

^Winner, thanks. I use heavy shop towels for my low wins to air them out, not sure why I didn't think of the same thing for this. A couple should limit angel's share to an acceptable amount and still let it breathe.

[DetroitDIY]

Single Malt, I've been listening to much of the same podcasts, and was thinking to post the same question as you.

What I heard (on the podcast, which had variations on the same "barrel aged water" from a number of professional artisan distilleries) was that this technique was borrowed from wine aging. And that I think the distillers were putting low wines new make into the barrels, not just water, to help interact with the barrel. Each distiller who mentioned it seemed to be trying something a bit different. I've been thinking to try the same thing, perhaps just adding a number of toasted oak staves to a glass carboy of low wines and water. I haven't done the math yet, but thought I would figure out how much water at ABV x to cut a 15 gallon barrel of ABV Y to my desired final proof.

I've also been hearing from that podcast and a few books I've been reading about the idea of not barreling the main spirits at 62% (as I've picked up from some threads I read on hear last year), but looking at lower strengths, for rum, for brandy, and such. I had been focused on 62% as being some magical value for interactions with the oak. But if I cut it with water, I dilute the oak and the color. If I barrel it at a lesser proof, I'll of course get some different interactions with the barrel, but I hadn't also considered the obvious bit that I'll retain more "oak" in the spirit that needs less water added. Duh!

So I'm thinking of trying some lower proof aging as well. I could imagine that deliberately changing the proof in the barrel over time may allow for different flavors to be drawn from the wood.

In my case, I have a 15 gallon barrel. I put in some 5 gallons at 62 proof about 18-20 months ago (lots of air space, simply because I hadn't distilled enough to fill it). Been pulling off 3/4 of a gallon at a time and cutting it to some 40 - 45 percent. My most recent draw (last month) came out at 71%! I couldn't believe how much water evaporation there had been. I live in southern Michigan, keep the barrel in the basement, and have a beast of a dehumidifier that pulls out up to 110 pints of water per day.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

71%? That's seriously strong. Did you sample it? Any good?

As for barreling at lower proofs: It seems to be the thing. I've not had two samples barreled at two different strengths to try back to back yet, but I should add that to the list of things I should try. Between lower entry proof and slow proofing it seems the craft industry is going away from the larger spirit industry standards. Lower proof means larger volumes of spirit meaning more barrels and larger warehouses. For the large guys it's a $$$ thing to have a higher entry proof.

[DetroitDIY]

No, didn't try it at that percent, other than catching a drip or two during the transfer. There's more in the barrel, so other chances. I tried cutting it to 47% from an earlier draw out of the barrel, but find I like this one more near 40%. I'm not so impressed with it as a sipping rum... think I need to hone my skills. But it serves well for a nice Cuba Libre. Soon as my current build is ready to run, I plan to get busy filling the barrel up with Purgirum... and see about prepping some barrel water to accompany it later on.

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Go to 16:30: https://stilltalkingpodcast.com/barrel- ... -squarrel/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

We dump the barrel and then soak with water at a certain temp for a certain time and you proof down with that liquid.

I think we're talking about two different things that got conflated. One is using a breather barrel with a lower proof spirit to help produce a weaker ABV aged spirit used for proofing, and the other is how to quickly create proofing water with more of the flavor of the aged spirit. I think we can use both models for our use.