Cuts for aging bourbon

[Twisted Brick]

So I just finished my first attempt at AG, a bourbon, (75% corn, 13% rye, 12% 2-row) and am unsure how to interpret my jars as I get ready to make cuts. Each of my mashes finished 1.060-1.065 and fermented out dry and clean (1.00-1.02) within recommended S-04 temps in 8-10 days. The only strip I did different from the others was I added 1 gallon of 38% low wines to my 5th and final strip.

From 29 liters of 38% low wines I collected 14 liters into 32 jars. After 250ml of fores, the first 7 liters came off at 88-86%, the next 3.5 liters were 85-78. All jars were ~300ml except jars 12-14 (hearts) and 27-32 (late tails) which were 800ml each. Problem is, everything after the hearts, even diluted to 40% taste perfectly acceptable down to jar 26. (The only jar I don't like is jar 16, which tastes bitter.) The post-hearts flavor profile began to transition from corn to rye and barley, but stayed sweet throughout, gradually reducing in intensity to a hint of bitterness at jar 27. Jar 32 was cloudy at 40%ABV so thats where I shut down. BTW - each of these assessments was done with 2ml samples (1ml distillate, 1 ml water) using a pipette, once during the run and again after airing.

FWIW, after airing for 2 days, I started jumping around with various combinations of 40ml samples (43-45% ABV), ie: jar 12, jar 15, blend of jars 12/17, 13/22, etc. Surprisingly, the blend of jars 15/18 was very tasty, but after 4 or 5 of these samples, I wonder if it was just me. I had no idea a blend with no hearts could be that tasty.

I know some guys go deep into tails for flavor, but this is unchartered territory for me. I am planning on aging the bulk of this run for a year using sticks from my wine barrel oak staves. For any of you bourbon guys (ahem: MCH, SCD, RedwoodHillbilly) do your cuts generally follow this kind of distribution? Do any of you guys make your cuts knowing specific things may change in the barrel?


Thanks,

Brick

[HDNB]

i know you didn't ask me but i think you are way too conservative. you are saying out of 29L of low wines you are calling 2.4L litres (jars 12,13 and 14 at 800mL each) hearts?

i'd be likely calling the fist 1500-2000mL heads and the last 3000mL tails so the part in the middle...maybe 6-8 litres (ish) would be my heart cut. maybe even 9 litres.

of course, i'm not looking, smelling or tasting it, so you got a leg up on the rest of there. If it tastes good, it's a keeper with me.

often blend back early tails (after that bitter jar, before the cloudy) in quantity. especially if aging. if it isn't bitter on the sides of your tongue or harsh on the back of your throat i don't call it tails.

[Twisted Brick]

i'd be likely calling the fist 1500-2000mL heads and the last 3000mL tails so the part in the middle...maybe 6-8 litres (ish) would be my heart cut. maybe even 9 litres.

Thanks a boatload, HDNB. With no basis for comparison outside sugar washes, this makes sense. In reality, the hearts section is much larger than what I thought. I went back and looked at my spreadsheet, added jar 28 to the end of my 'hearts' and the numbers worked out like this: jars 1-11 (3800ml) jars 12-28 (7000 ml) jars 29-32 (3200). I guess searching for ways to reduce heads is next on my list.

If it tastes good, it's a keeper with me.
often blend back early tails (after that bitter jar, before the cloudy) in quantity. especially if aging. if it isn't bitter on the sides of your tongue or harsh on the back of your throat i don't call it tails.

So after reading this, I sampled just jar 28 by itself, and damn, if that wasn't good! Great rye taste. Goes into the mix. Jar 29 had the first hint of a wet dog, or the true onset of tails. I'm wondering if this would get absorbed/masked with oak and 9-12 months.

Next, I fixed myself up a glass of jars 12-28 (2ml of liquor and 2ml of water for each jar). Damn if that isn't the best tasting whiskey I've ever made. Can't wait to see what it's like after a year.

Thanks again. I learned there's a distinct difference in the samples I took right out the pipe and what develops after 2 days of airing. You helped me recognize what was in there the whole time.

[zapata]

So after reading this, I sampled just jar 28 by itself, and damn, if that wasn't good! Great rye taste. Goes into the mix. Jar 29 had the first hint of a wet dog, or the true onset of tails. I'm wondering if this would get absorbed/masked with oak and 9-12 months.

You can make a sample to age separately so you know for sure for your palate. If you kept jar 28 as hearts it would be 10.25% of your hearts mix by volume. Easy enough to mix up a smaller jar of 90% existing hearts and 10% jar 28. You can see how it works white, but more importantly age it separately and see what those wet dog notes do over time, and you don't have to risk all of your hearts to do it. If it ages well you get a controlled experiment in what cuts taste like to you fresh, and what they age into. Thats a golden lesson that can't be read in a book or typed on the net.

Personally I'm of the opinion that while the right tails are good, a smidge too much of the wrong tails can ruin a spirit for me. A little too much heads is just a mild disappointment, but doesn't ruin a whiskey the way tails can. If it's your first AG bourbon, I wouldn't gamble the whole batch on something you aren't sure about. Keeping the bulk of it a bit tighter will definitely not ruin it, a bitter dog aftertaste might.

[Twisted Brick]

You can make a sample to age separately so you ... you don't have to risk all of your hearts to do it. If it ages well you get a controlled experiment in what cuts taste like to you fresh, and what they age into. Thats a golden lesson that can't be read in a book or typed on the net.

Great idea. I'm on it. I think I will make two separate half pint test jars, one with 10% slightly-doggy tails, and if I can't (or can) taste them blended white, a second jar with 20% (just to see how far aging might work)

Personally I'm of the opinion that while the right tails are good, a smidge too much of the wrong tails can ruin a spirit for me. A little too much heads is just a mild disappointment, but doesn't ruin a whiskey the way tails can. If it's your first AG bourbon, I wouldn't gamble the whole batch on something you aren't sure about. Keeping the bulk of it a bit tighter will definitely not ruin it, a bitter dog aftertaste might.

Sage advice. I'm gonna take the safe route since I may be able to save a bottle for a son's or daughter's wedding in a few years. (yeah, right)

A number of years ago, during a period that saw a flurry of scotch sampling for me, my brother handed me a dram of 12-13yo Balblair 2002. It tasted of all the wonderful single malt attributes scotch normally has, but the finish had a noticeable skunk taste. This was a first for me, and I'm thinking it might be tails that maybe weren't detectable at time of barreling (or not).

[MichiganCornhusker]

For any of you bourbon guys (ahem: MCH, SCD, RedwoodHillbilly) do your cuts generally follow this kind of distribution? Do any of you guys make your cuts knowing specific things may change in the barrel?

Ha, I love being a Bourbon Guy!
Over the years I've gotten looser with my cuts.
I've never much hated the tails that come from my AG runs, and I'm not as afraid of keeping every hint of heads out of the mix now neither. I think it adds to the blend, gives it some "spank" as Jimbo has said.

I did do a batch way back when and it was pretty tailsy and tasted rough for more than a year. But then something magic happened and it became one of my favorite whiskeys.
Now that was just one batch, but a lot can happen over time for sure.

One way to develop better cuts is to go big picture.
Testing each jar, one at a time, smelling, sipping, feeling, dowsing, swirling and twirling around twice, and all that is great to work on blending.
But, another good way is to just make up a few different blends from the same run.

Divy up the spirit run into small jars, make your best blend based on the jars and your senses, but then make another blend or two with different cuts.
In other words, make your premium best judgement blend, and then maybe make one batch that has more tails, one that has more heads, and maybe one with just wider cuts.
Age them all the same way and compare them after a year.

It's easy to taste a well aged whiskey and then think "Oh, I went too deep", or "a bit too headsy", but with nothing to compare it to directly it is just kind of guessing at what could have been.
By making up different blends from the same batch, you can really taste the impact different cuts make on the final spirit.

[Antler24]

I gotta second HDNB when he says your being conservative, his number closely match mine, but like he said your the only one can smell and taste.

What I do when making cuts is, I smell and taste small diluted samples from each jar until I think I know what jars I will keep or toss. Then I take 1ml from every jar I plan to keep and combine in glass, dilute and taste for final decision.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Do the best you can, and let time sort it out.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

When I first started making whiskey, I was very conservative, much like you now. I found a lot of pride in being able to produce just hearts. Aging it on wood, and having yummy vanilla and caramel in a glass.

I got a visit from a very well known member here about a year and half in. We met for dinner, and I brought a couple samples of different generations of UJSSM I had between 6 months and a year old. He told me, "Wow, you really know your cuts, and where they are". "Do me a favor, stop doing them in jars, and just cut off the still".

I was very confused by this advice, and we talked about it a good portion of the night. He told me to trust myself, you know the lines, let go. Make the cuts on the still.

It took me a while to try it, but once I did, I never looked back. I am still very meticulous, and I pull samples, dilute, smell, feel, taste, do the eye test. I do it all. But when I make my decision, it's done. I call it, and the whiskey is defined, almost deciding itself where it wants to be.

Now, I don't really care that it is unpopular, and I get it. If I tried to do that when I first started, I would have been fumbling around a long time trying to understand it. But what I noticed after doing this, is that I started realizing how flat my whiskey was before. Even though I may not get the cut perfectly between heads and hearts, I aim for it, and usually get with in a 150 ml on both sides. And you know what? That's generally the little bit of late heads and early tails that this conservative blender needed in the barrel.

It's like the great artist and musicians of history. You have to learn what the rules are, so you can break them. You learn the cuts, so you can go beyond them.

If you throw the first 2000ml and last 2000ml out, you're still doing better than allot of bourbons. Hone in from there. With enough time, you can't really fuck up a good mash. If the mash is right, and you somewhat care about cuts, the bourbon is the spirit it was meant to be. If in a year, you're a click of center, move your target

And then see my previous post.

[nerdybrewer]

When I first started making whiskey, I was very conservative, much like you now. I found a lot of pride in being able to produce just hearts. Aging it on wood, and having yummy vanilla and caramel in a glass.

I got a visit from a very well known member here about a year and half in. We met for dinner, and I brought a couple samples of different generations of UJSSM I had between 6 months and a year old. He told me, "Wow, you really know your cuts, and where they are". "Do me a favor, stop doing them in jars, and just cut off the still".

I was very confused by this advice, and we talked about it a good portion of the night. He told me to trust myself, you know the lines, let go. Make the cuts on the still.

It took me a while to try it, but once I did, I never looked back. I am still very meticulous, and I pull samples, dilute, smell, feel, taste, do the eye test. I do it all. But when I make my decision, it's done. I call it, and the whiskey is defined, almost deciding itself where it wants to be.

Now, I don't really care that it is unpopular, and I get it. If I tried to do that when I first started, I would have been fumbling around a long time trying to understand it. But what I noticed after doing this, is that I started realizing how flat my whiskey was before. Even though I may not get the cut perfectly between heads and hearts, I aim for it, and usually get with in a 150 ml on both sides. And you know what? That's generally the little bit of late heads and early tails that this conservative blender needed in the barrel.

It's like the great artist and musicians of history. You have to learn what the rules are, so you can break them. You learn the cuts, so you can go beyond them.

If you throw the first 2000ml and last 2000ml out, you're still doing better than allot of bourbons. Hone in from there. With enough time, you can't really fuck up a good mash. If the mash is right, and you somewhat care about cuts, the bourbon is the spirit it was meant to be. If in a year, you're a click of center, move your target

And then see my previous post.

Sage advice SCD.
Then let time & oak sort it out.

[Twisted Brick]

I gotta second HDNB when he says your being conservative, his number closely match mine, but like he said your the only one can smell and taste.

Thanks guys. If there's anything I've learned from this batch is that AG fermented to 8% is much more forgiving than TPW or UJ fermented to 10%. After re-assessing, my heads cut is now 2000ml, tails, 3200ml.

Divy up the spirit run into small jars, make your best blend based on the jars and your senses, but then make another blend or two with different cuts.
In other words, make your premium best judgement blend, and then maybe make one batch that has more tails, one that has more heads, and maybe one with just wider cuts.
Age them all the same way and compare them after a year.

It's easy to taste a well aged whiskey and then think "Oh, I went too deep", or "a bit too headsy", but with nothing to compare it to directly it is just kind of guessing at what could have been.
By making up different blends from the same batch, you can really taste the impact different cuts make on the final spirit.

Thanks MCH. Great piece of advice. I did exactly as you describe, and made up 5 or 6 different blends. I was pleasantly surprised to find out the earlier jars (7-10) tasted great in the mix even with only 7 or 8 jars total in the sample. (samples were 60ml, 43%ABV). By great I mean they added a bit of fruitiness and roundness without being hot. I'm figuring that's one of the payoffs from pitching an ale yeast and fermenting right in the middle of its recommended temp range. A typical blend was a combination of say, jars 8, 10, 14, 18, 22, 26, 28. I found myself including jar 28 in most of them because of the rye contribution. And oh yeah, I started out with 1ml samples (16ml total) but that felt too clinical. I wanted something to drink. Even after 3 or 4 of these babies they each tasted unique.

I had no idea that each blend could taste so different from the others, coming from the same batch. I didn't think of it until you mentioned it, but I'm gonna explore how many blends I can make out of 8 liters and age 'em all the same. It never occurred to me that if I made one 'best' cut, I would end up with one whiskey, and a fraction of what I could have.

With enough time, you can't really fuck up a good mash.

Reassuring words for sure, thanks.

From Jedi Master Obi-Wan: "Stretch out with your feelings Luke..." I hear you. Like all the others, I have so much time and attention put into this I don't want to fuck it up. I just need to enjoy the ride, learn to trust myself and that the results will be good either way. I've thought all along I want to learn to eventually make cuts off the still (save on jars!). To me its such an advanced skill its bound to be unpopular. I guess the sooner I try it the sooner I'll get there.

Thanks again.

Brick

[jon1163]

When I first started making whiskey, I was very conservative, much like you now. I found a lot of pride in being able to produce just hearts. Aging it on wood, and having yummy vanilla and caramel in a glass.

I got a visit from a very well known member here about a year and half in. We met for dinner, and I brought a couple samples of different generations of UJSSM I had between 6 months and a year old. He told me, "Wow, you really know your cuts, and where they are". "Do me a favor, stop doing them in jars, and just cut off the still".

I was very confused by this advice, and we talked about it a good portion of the night. He told me to trust myself, you know the lines, let go. Make the cuts on the still.

It took me a while to try it, but once I did, I never looked back. I am still very meticulous, and I pull samples, dilute, smell, feel, taste, do the eye test. I do it all. But when I make my decision, it's done. I call it, and the whiskey is defined, almost deciding itself where it wants to be.

Now, I don't really care that it is unpopular, and I get it. If I tried to do that when I first started, I would have been fumbling around a long time trying to understand it. But what I noticed after doing this, is that I started realizing how flat my whiskey was before. Even though I may not get the cut perfectly between heads and hearts, I aim for it, and usually get with in a 150 ml on both sides. And you know what? That's generally the little bit of late heads and early tails that this conservative blender needed in the barrel.

It's like the great artist and musicians of history. You have to learn what the rules are, so you can break them. You learn the cuts, so you can go beyond them.

If you throw the first 2000ml and last 2000ml out, you're still doing better than allot of bourbons. Hone in from there. With enough time, you can't really fuck up a good mash. If the mash is right, and you somewhat care about cuts, the bourbon is the spirit it was meant to be. If in a year, you're a click of center, move your target

And then see my previous post.

Every once in awhile a post comes along that's so helpful, insightful, and informative that it actually, in and of itself, increases my desire to get better at this craft. I'm inclined to reply to save it for my record. Thanks SCD.

[Jimbo]

For a good lesson on cuts and how flavors are affected, try this, I did and it was very educational. Get a bottle of vodka, dump it in a quart jar and drop in some charred oak for aging. Come back in a few months and give er a try. Youll understand immediately how boring your whiskey will be if you go too tight on the cuts. 2 dashes of tails for meaning and a dash of heads for meat on them bones.

Jimbo

[Copperhead road]

2 dashes of tails for meaning and a dash of heads for meat on them bones.

Jimbo

Yer that!!!! Have started using this technique on my bastardised corn,wheat,barley UJ .
Pulled out one of my mason jar samples the other day, at only 10 months on oak the flavours had all shown there face in my spirit. Was superb 100 proof Neat and even better with Coke.....

[bitter]

I typically go with a bit narrower cuts. Had a ferment stall and cuts on that were narrow compared to other batches about 45-46% kept (at 2 years it coming along nice, at 6 months was not great)... Some batched as high as about 62% kept.. most are about 54%.

It varies on the wash, yeast and fermentation. Also how fast you want to drink it. If I have something I want to drink in 7-12 months max, I take a little tighter cuts.. but keep that too long and you loose a lot of complexity.

I also had a batch of Ujssm that I missed the head cut by about 1/2 a jar... was a cold setting in did not know till later. At 1 year could not get it past my nose but at 2 years the cuts were perfect..

I tend to do cuts with very little if not no heads.. but a good amount of tails if I know I will get over a year to 2 years on oak. The tails break down and help with some very nice complexity and depth to a whiskey.. when young.... can't stand it even at a year as is washes down the back of my tongue... also can be harder on the stomach if too much tails..

So many variables. I had a batch of ujssm I had added about 10% rye to was really nice complex some spice at 1 year... at 3 years old it was too smooth and did not shine any more. Cuts were reasonably tight on that batch... wider cuts would have done it more justice... once older but made it harder to drink young.

B

[Copperhead road]

That is a great write-up @bitter of your findings, it’s amazing how different lengths of time can turn up different results when adding more of the front and back to our hearts cut.

[bitter]

glad it helped. I also use mostly gallon jugs for aging... and use cork stoppers.. give some breathability to things

[Twisted Brick]

For a good lesson on cuts and how flavors are affected, try this, I did and it was very educational. Get a bottle of vodka, dump it in a quart jar and drop in some charred oak for aging. Come back in a few months and give er a try. Youll understand immediately how boring your whiskey will be if you go too tight on the cuts.

Jimbo

Well, one month on oak and I am sooo thankful for the advice to make the wider cuts. Yes, the first sip is a bit 'hot' right now, but the flavor is pleasingly round and full and sweet. I am also amazed at how nicely the stave sticks have given up their vanilla and caramel. Man, is this a great hobby or what?!!

I think I would be disappointed if I had stayed conservative with my cuts and ended up with a bland, flat spirit like Jimbo suggests can happen. Like others, I expect and enjoy a bit of spank that comes in spirits, and if there's still excess heads after a year, I understand this can be dealt with by blending or selective airing or both. This tells me its a viable strategy to include a higher level of heads up front than not have enough.

[Jimbo]

6 months. It really takes 6 months minimum for the tails to start harmonizing. Don't draw any conclusions before. 2 years is better. Brew a lot and brew often. Stocks are the only way to leave your mitts off it long enough. Drink the young stuff with a mixer.

[Copperhead road]

6 months. It really takes 6 months minimum for the tails to start harmonizing. Don't draw any conclusions before. 2 years is better. Brew a lot and brew often. Stocks are the only way to leave your mitts off it long enough. Drink the young stuff with a mixer.

Great advice +1

[Antler24]

I'd suggest after making cuts take a small jar and seal it, and keep it with your aging stock. The jar should change very little in taste/smell. In a year or 2 when you sample your aged bourbon and think how good it is, you can compare to the sealed jar and adjust your cuts accordingly with your next run.

[Twisted Brick]

That's a great idea!

[bitter]

+100 for Jimbo on 6 mounths plus .. I typically don't even tasty anything till 9 months to a year any more (other than for making cuts).

B

[Copperhead road]

Did cuts today on 5 big runs, had 70 jars airing for about 5 weeks..... lazy Distiller

Ended up with 13.5 litres of hearts for barrel stocks corn,wheat,malt barley whiskey