EvOak testing on Everclear at 55% for flavor potential

[Honest_Liberty]

play around with aging? I need to know the flavor profile to expect from different toasts.

I requested some EVoak samples, 6 in total were sent (Cuvee No2, No3; high spice, Pure 2 vanilla, Precision FIre Toast & Savory). I bought some Everclear because I could easily knock down the proof. Now, my interpretation is that everclear is disgusting and uncut? however, I need something at 55% to get a feel for the flavors imparted to determine if any are worth putting on the rye I plan on making, and this was the quickest method to begin testing.

I knocked down the percentage to 57% and placed each 2 stick vial into some jars with 200 ml, decided to nuke for 90 seconds and placed in the garage. The cap is a typical mason jar cap except I buffered with a paper towel. I'm not sure whether that does anything to keep the metal from leeching but I figured it was worth a shot. I haven't had issues with the nuking method on JD chips with my Sweetfeed sugarhead in my first few runs so I think it should be ok.

I wanted to extract some flavor quick and now I could use some suggestions from those with aging experience, if you are willing.

Should I do two more nuke and overnight cooling or let it sit for a week, then step down to mid 40's and rest to hopefully pull some sweetness from the wood (as I've read on here somewhere).

Again, thoughts would be appreciated and if anyone is interested, I will take some photos and upload tomorrow evening. Also, constructive criticism of my ignorance or lack of knowledge is also welcomed. I'm sure I'm not approaching this from the most efficient or proper manner.

[Honest_Liberty]

is this a terrible idea? It appears that people have tried this but I didn't find the results where people have discussed whether it is a worthy endeavor. I am hoping to pick up some different flavor profiles but will the proof down end product be so gross that it'll outweigh the differences between each type?

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Not a bad idea. It's a matter of finding the right mix of wood flavor to spirit flavor, ABV, and wood to spirit volume. I got a free 12 pack of the same stuff, I plan on trying it too.

[still_stirrin]

is this a terrible idea?

Bad idea? It is a waste of $$$.

Everclear (trade name for “grain alcohol” or 190 proof neutral “grain neutral spirit” GNS), will not produce the rich malt flavors you’re trying to “magicaly” produce in the whiskey cask. It is very expensive to buy, by the way, for the purpose of diluting and filling a cask.

You can’t find a lot of discussion regarding doing this because we hobby distill here and your proposed experiment is expensive and easily surpassed by quality recipes and processes described at length here.

If you truly want to spend your money on grain alcohol and then dilute it to “try” to make an acceptable whiskey, by all means “help yourself”. Personally, I know there’s better recipes and processes here than that...at a much more affordable expenditure as well.
ss

[jonnys_spirit]

Before I started stillin I did this with some corn liquor, tequila, and rum. Proofed up to 125pf with everclear then added towsted and charred oak.

It’s about 1yr old now and when I proof it down to 80pf each one is really very good.

The corn liquor was gone a long time ago so i guess that one came out best.

Not quige the same as stillin your own but a worthwhile test imho.

Proof up to 125. Age and oak. I start drinking it and testing it right away. Age as long as you can. Inhad some at 8mon that was really good.

Cheers!
-j

[still_stirrin]

... Proofed up to 125pf with everclear then added toasted and charred oak...

I don’t know about where you live, but here 1/2 pint of grain alcohol costs as much as a full pint of a regular spirit. So, to buy it when I disitill my own spirits (regardless of the proof) is “cost prohibitive”. In other words, it simply isn’t worth it.

Now, if I was looking to “enhance” store bought liquors by my own “post processing”, then perhaps it is a viable option. Personally, I think I’d just spring for a better “store bought” liquor. But I guess we’re all prone to experimentation. So be it.
ss

[jonnys_spirit]

Yes. It was a good experiment and before I started stillin. I bought the cheapest of all the liquors then proofed up with everclear to see if I could actually make it better with oak and age. Big yes. Now I still my own and have ‘t gone back to that experiment with everclear. My cuts always seem to come out about 130-136pf so I cask it at that.

Several years ago I would get mason jars of “moonshine” from a friend of a friend. I also tried at that time to do some oaking using apple wood chils and JD oak chips. Nust threw a bunch in the jar that I had hit with the blow torch. It was probably abojt 80pf.

Was pretty chewey and not good after a month so it went to the back of the liquor cabinet to be forgotten. About 18month later I rediscovered that little experiment and it was damn good (i’m normally an $80 bourbon scotch guy). It was then that I knew my childhood dreams of bein a craft stiller were going to happen.

I cried real tears of joy when I made my first grappa !

BEst of luck!
-j

[Honest_Liberty]

I might not have explained myself properly, so I'll try here.

The purpose for this was to hopefully discover possible different taste profiles from the EVoak products and see whether it'll be worth choosing them instead of toasting and charring my own oak. Price wasn't a concern but in hindsight I should have grabbed some Colorado Sun Shine and spiked it with everclear.

I only have 3 gallons of low wines so I'm nowhere near enough gathered for a good stripping run and I just ended up with some nasty rotten egg, rankish low wines which was supposed to get me to 5 gallons to run my first spirit run, but that didn't work out. I'm behind schedule. My wedding is in September and I want to figure out which toast to buy from them (if any) to age either what I get out of a spirit run when I hit enough of the sweetfeed low wines, or maybe I'll run the rye bread sugarhead low and slow instead of distilling twice. I don't know but I figured this was a timely method to discern some semblance of a flavor profile from the EVoak stuff.

Also, I am nowhere near good enough to do all grain (my first attempt was my last and it ended up dissapointing from beginning to end) the stuff smells god awful. So...I dunno. I hope that explains my reasoning and if ye still think it was a waste then I get it. I can say this everclear is absolute garbage. I don't know much about how they achieve such a high percentage but wouldn't that mean its almost all heads and early hearts?

[TDick]

I might not have explained myself properly, so I'll try here.
The purpose for this was to hopefully discover possible different taste profiles from the EVoak products and see whether it'll be worth choosing them instead of toasting and charring my own oak. Price wasn't a concern but in hindsight I should have grabbed some Colorado Sun Shine and spiked it with everclear.
Also, I am nowhere near good enough to do all grain (my first attempt was my last and it ended up dissapointing from beginning to end) the stuff smells god awful.

Hello Fellow N B

Sounds like you are just spinning your wheels looking for a direction.
I bought some cheap bourbon and played with chips and microwave....waste of time.

Personal opinion is AG isn't THAT hard and Jimbo's recipes are pretty easy to follow. Otherwise everyone seems to love UJSM as a learning "project".
I suggest scrolling down T&T to find something that fits. Much more than a recipe they usually include several YEARS of trials, failures then successes.
Better to learn from their failures than yours.
Good luck!

[Honest_Liberty]

I'm stubborn, but trying.

I just finished preparing my wash for Odin's Rye Bread sugarhead. I'm pretty excited, it smells incredible. I went with Mestemachers organic rye so hopefully that is sufficient. I had a hard time choosing between that and the pumpernickle.

So yea, I'm fixin' to get this sweetfeed sugar head up to enough low wines to run a 12 gallon spirit run, and then we'll see how this rye turns out. After my meltdown the other night I've decided no more trying to cut corners. I guess what you are saying is trying to pull oak flavor through a medium like everclear is another corner cut.. ok, fair enough.

[zapata]

I honestly think the everclear experiment is a perfectly reasonable way for a new distiller to experiment with different oak toasts / char to learn the different flavors and have some idea what you want to use on your hard earned first whiskies. Yes, it's kinda expensive, but once you count the time, and the time for possible failures, it probably isn't more expensive than doing the same experiment on your own spirits.

If I'm splitting hairs, I think anybody should be able to make some UJ or even just a plain sugar wash to do the same experiment, and get the benefit of experience too. But whatever, I think it will be educational either way. Will it be delicious? Probably not. But it should help train the pallate and understand different toast profiles.

[Honest_Liberty]

Thanks Zapata. I can say the only reason I went with Everclear was due to time constraints. I really want to have a gallon of Odin's RyeBread aged enough to share at my wedding, and I didn't see a way to age it on something clean enough within the time I have until September. I also want to have a few gallons of SF whiskey. I may or may not age the SF depending. Thanks for the support, and I certainly agree with all the criticisms, I didn't know what other avenue to take for a quick turnaround.

[bluefish_dist]

As quick as a simple single malt runs, I would consider doing that. Mine ferment in less than a week, so yes, it would add a couple weeks to your tests, but would be far more representative of actual whiskeys. You still have a solid 5 months for aging. That should be plenty of time.

[HDNB]

I'd second Bluefish's idea. do up some single malt it will be wayyy smoother in 5 months than any sugarhead.

to help a sugar head along faster, i always had good luck throwing in about 2"of vanilla bean cut up. it soothes the rough edges really quickly and gives a nice nose that takes a ton of time to replicate with oak alone.

[butterpants]

If you can't mash and do what Bluefish says... or mash in quantity, get a big trash can and start cranking out UJSSM. In a few weeks you can make enough to fill a 5 gallon bbl with final product. I did this as an experiment. At my best, I can turn over 2 fermentations of that stuff a week to include strip runs. It's a long time in the garage.... but it's for SCIENCE!

It's certainly not what I'd consider true bourbon flavor but after cuts it's amazingly good to play with for the little effort and low cost of raw ingredients. Perfect blank. canvas.

[Honest_Liberty]

man you guys are awesome! thanks for the advice. I'll have to go revisit UJSSM.
I'm concerned about an all grain mash because I have a brew kettle but no way to sparge properly, unless I'm still not understanding the concept. I couldn't get my corn to clear. I don't know.

[cuginosgrizzo]

I'm concerned about an all grain mash because I have a brew kettle but no way to sparge properly, unless I'm still not understanding the concept. I couldn't get my corn to clear. I don't know.

Then don't lauter. I have always fermented on the grain both my AG bourbons and my single malts. You'll have a lot to squeeze, after, but it's easier than lautering.

And you don't need to have a crystal clear wash in order to run it. As long as you don't have too much solids in it you can run it.

[zapata]

Lautering a single malt couldn't be easier or cheaper, forget any problems you had with corn.
$0 - $50 gets everything you need for batch sparging depending on what you have laying around or can get from yardsales or thrift shops. See:
dennybrew.com
Just mash at lower temp than he describes since it's for whisky. Like 145*F or so And of course skip the boil.
Batch sparging isn't the most efficient (70-80% vs the 100% for grain in ferments), but it's clean, cheap, easy and hard to screw up. I've done it for delicious whisky. I'd just do 1 sparge if you're just making one batch. If doing more than 1 batch a day I'd do a 2nd sparge to use to start your 2nd batch which will up your efficiency.

It's pretty much what the Scotts do, though they do 2 running for each ferment, and 2 running to start the next. As thrifty as they are, it's gotta work pretty well.
Nothing wrong with grain in ferments, but it does change the flavor profile at least some. And sparging is so easy with malt, I'd rather door than strain afterward. OTOH I think flavor for corn and bourbon benefit from grain in ferments.

[Honest_Liberty]

I've been confused about this. If I ferment on the grains, I squeeze the grains after fermentation is complete? I then recycle the squeezed wash into the next batch with my backset?

I have a 24 gallon plastic wine bucket that I ferment my washes in, if I want to continue to get mileage out of the yeast bed, I haven't figured out how much to remove of the old grains. I would run out of space and the bucket would be way to heavy to work with if I just kept adding more grain.

This has been something I haven't had luck finding in the research (or I just didn't understand it when I read it)

[zapata]

Honest, sounds like you are specifically thinking of a sugar and corn style whiskey? You've read the UJSSM thread? Should all be in there. Most other whisky recipes don't reuse either grains or any amount of the wash. They may use some amount of backset in a future wash however, usually no more than 10% of the wash volume. A single malt or AG bourbon for example doesn't reuse grains.

So if you do mean for UJSSM or something similar, personally I'd just remove some grain, sometimes, when it seems right or you need the room. In a recipe like that nearly all your fermentables come from the sugar, and the flavoring from the grain and bacteria isn't super precise so it doesn't seem to matter much if you replace a little more or less. So far as the yeast supplied by reusing the grain bed, there is way more than enough there even if you removed 3/4 of the yeasty grains.

But when I'm running multiple generations of UJ, I don't squeeze the grains at all. I let the wash settle a bit, and siphon off what is clear off the top of the grain bed, leaving the grain bed fully wet and saturated. At this point its easy enough to scoop out some of the spent grain if you need to before using some backset to dissolve more sugar and adding more water and corn for the next generation. I'm rarely precise with the grain going in or out, but always am with the sugar and backset.

I personally no longer reuse yeast from whiskey washes other UJ, I get more mileage and more repeatable results by making yeast starters in sterile wash. E.g. I will pitch a pack of yeast to a gallon of sterile wash, and use 1 quart to start a ferment and store the other 3 quarts for future ferments (or even more rounds of starters). The results of a perpetual highly contaminated yeast bed work well for a sugar and corn shine, but aren't ideal to my palate or risk level for other whiskies which cost a lot more in both dollars and time.

[raketemensch]

I think he’s talking about re-using the Yeast for the next batch, rather than pitching fresh, but I could be mistaken.

(My iPad has decided to always capitalize Yeast, and I’ve decided it’s probably right)

[Honest_Liberty]

Thank you Zapata. This is the information I couldn't decipher.

Yes raket. I want to continue to use the yeast instead of pitching fresh. I'm going to go the route Zapata mentioned. This clears everything up. I thought I had to use Backset and a portion of the previous grain/yeast bed.

[zapata]

Honest, you really need to read 2 threads if you haven't.
1. UJSSM viewtopic.php?f=14&t=725
This is the classic sugar and corn sour mash shine. It's so easy and proven it's ridiculous. This reuses the grain and yeast bed as well as backset.
2. Jimbo's wheated bourbon and gumballhead viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39617
This is 2 recipes in one. A classic all grain bourbon, as well as a spent grain + sugar recipe. Backset is optional but recommended for both. Yeast starter recommended for the first, yeast/grain bed reused for the second.

Read those 2 threads and wrap your head around them. There's enough info in both threads that if you take the time to understand them you should be able to make just about any whiskey any way you want.

[Honest_Liberty]

Hmm ok. I recall skimming them but I'll really sit down and digest it this weekend

[Honest_Liberty]

Because so far I'm unimpressed with my SF whiskey. It's fermenting out dry but I swear all I taste in my heart's are sugar. Maybe my taste buds just aren't acquainted yet.
Not to mention making cuts is proving a real challenge