Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
HighSpirits
Novice
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu May 03, 2018 7:06 am

Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by HighSpirits »

Just ran my second batch of bourbon two nights ago, pretty standard grain bill 70% cracked corn, 15% 2-row, 10% Rye Berries and 5% Honey Malt...Used a Safale 256 yeast at 70F to promote some banana esters. While making my cuts I was very harsh about what went in to the jar. Anything that tingled on the tongue was kept out... Anything bitter, or tingly on the throat was cut out. On 8gal of 5.64% wash I got roughly 4.2L of low wines at 35%. After my spirit run and cuts I have about 950ml at 61% (coincidentally very close to barrel proof without even having to water down). I was pretty proud of myself, and set it to age with a charred white oak stick.

Then I pulled out a bottle of Woodford Reserve bourbon and got to sipping. Now I am confused and concerned.

I like WR Bourbons, the high rye content makes for a spicy drop. Without analyzing it it offers a complexity that just makes you satisfied. But being in 'cutting mode' I started to pull it apart.

1) Mid level heads on the tongue. that tingle that I was quick to discard in my run? seems like they decided to keep some in there. It's not harsh like Blanton's, it's subtle but its definitely there
2) nice caramel oaky body (wouldn't be a bourbon without it)
3) definitely tasting some bitterness in the aftertaste, similar to some of the tails I discarded. Tingling on the back of the mouth and throat is there too.

Obviously the subject of cutting is widely debated and I've read as many thready that say KILL ALL HEADS as I've read threads that say WHY ARE YOU KILLING HEADS!? But as it relates to the subject of complexity in a bourbon... and given what I've pulled apart from the WR high rye bourbon... How do you all feel about tingly heads and bitter tails contributing to a bigger picture with your bourbons? Is my 'heads only' OCD going against me in creating a complex drop?

I'm a bourbon lover and if I made nothing else for the rest of my life I'd be happy. Would like to get my cutting skills up to par, and as a life goal would like to have 'making a great bourbon' as one of my life skills.
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by Saltbush Bill »

HighSpirits wrote:Would like to get my cutting skills up to par,
Only you know what you really like, experience is the only teacher that can really help you I think.
Others will only tell you what they like or think.
Some only like hearts, others like some tails ...and other heads...some like both or all.
butterpants
Swill Maker
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:22 pm
Location: CO

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by butterpants »

In whiskey I like some tails, I think there's a ton of flavor in there. I do not like heads.... I do like the burn but the solventy lighter alcohols bother me.

Now my still buddy is the exact opposite.

Yes, it's annoying as hell. I can drink white my cut stuff and sometimes prefer it that way. Stuff we make for him reminds me of paint thinner... but that's what he likes.

I'm generally not patient enough to see if I really win in the end if all the solventy heads cut hooch ages out in a barrel to happy, grainy goodness.

Just make what you like.... realizing that "what you like" is going to change, possibly dramatically over the course of a few years.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by Pikey »

As the lads have said - make it to suit yourself.

I sometimes think people get a little over-sensitive about cuts. I can make stuff which is so smooth, you can sip the 60% and it doesn't have any "Bite" as all ! - Some think that is admirable. I don't personally, I want my product to taste like an alcoholic drink, so I often end up adding back a lot of heads and some tails - depending what I'm making.

Some products have the flavour in late heads, others in tails - and in those cases you have no real choice, but I find myself creeping towards wider cuts, especially on brown spirits.

So just do it to your own taste :)

[Edit - I might try doing a batch with tight cuts and one cut very wide to bottle and see what the "visitors" like best - it would be good to have the range to refer back to ]
OtisT
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:59 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by OtisT »

Pikey wrote:[Edit - I might try doing a batch with tight cuts and one cut very wide to bottle and see what the "visitors" like best - it would be good to have the range to refer back to ]
Recently I have been in the habit of making two cuts on each new spirit I make. That way I can drink and compare both versions to see the effect of my cuts and aging process versus the base product. I only reserve a small amount of white, so not to mess with the bulk of my product that is aged.

It's a simple process:
On paper, decide where I would do cuts for a white cut and where I would do cuts for a barrel cut.
Mix the white cut jars and test ABV. Reserve just enough white product that when proofed down will fill one or two small bottles.
Mix the white cut with the remaining barrel cut jars and do your aging thing.

The tricky part is ensuring that some of the white cut lasts long enough for comparing to the aged barrel cut. ;-)

Otis
Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser: Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
Learning to Toast: Toasting Wood
Polishing Spirits with Fruitwood: Fruitwood
Badmotivator’s Barrels: Badmo Barrels
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by Pikey »

OtisT wrote:
Pikey wrote:[Edit - I might try doing a batch with tight cuts and one cut very wide to bottle and see what the "visitors" like best - it would be good to have the range to refer back to ]
Recently I have been in the habit of making two cuts on each new spirit I make. That way I can drink and compare both versions to see the effect of my cuts and aging process versus the base product. I only reserve a small amount of white, so not to mess with the bulk of my product that is aged.

............

The tricky part is ensuring that some of the white cut lasts long enough for comparing to the aged barrel cut. ;-)

Otis
I need a bigger still ! :twisted:
User avatar
bitter
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1999
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:51 pm
Location: Great White North

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by bitter »

First congrats on your run.

A few notes or points
- The tighter your cuts the sooner you can drink it but you will loose complexity with narrow cuts over time.
-Wider cuts will give you complexity but will take time.
-I'm with you on heads but there are some nice flowery notes from barley early in the heads also for example apple brandy the apple is there early in the heads.

I typically take very tight cuts on the head side but go deeper in the tales for stuff I am leaving a year or 3+

B
HighSpirits
Novice
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu May 03, 2018 7:06 am

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by HighSpirits »

Good insight from all in this, I do think its largely subjective so am happy to hear the diversity in answers here. I'm a biochemist, and I distill all sorts of things in my day job (including industrial ethanol) so I am used to approaching things with a strict theoretical/rule based angle, but I think I have a much deeper appreciation for the artisanal side of making cuts after this experience. I guess it's different when you're feeding a machine instead of a human. I feel like no amount of science or research can help me here! haha. I've made a goal for myself to try at least 12 different bourbon recipes (one a month) for a year, so hopefully with each run I will get that field experience I need. I'm finding I may like controlled doses of each, but would like to continue hearing how you all cut your bourbons!
Antler24
Trainee
Posts: 979
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:00 pm

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by Antler24 »

Pikey wrote:As the lads have said - make it to suit yourself.

I sometimes think people get a little over-sensitive about cuts. I can make stuff which is so smooth, you can sip the 60% and it doesn't have any "Bite" as all ! - Some think that is admirable. I don't personally, I want my product to taste like an alcoholic drink, so I often end up adding back a lot of heads and some tails - depending what I'm making.

Some products have the flavour in late heads, others in tails - and in those cases you have no real choice, but I find myself creeping towards wider cuts, especially on brown spirits.

So just do it to your own taste :)

[Edit - I might try doing a batch with tight cuts and one cut very wide to bottle and see what the "visitors" like best - it would be good to have the range to refer back to ]
Agree 100%. I was pretty proud of my cuts when I was drinking 6 month old ujsm. Now as I start to get into older 2yr old batches I realize I'm gonna need to adjust my cuts. It's got good flavour and I think I did great with aging, but @ 62% has zero alcohol burn, and I like a little heat in my sipping whiskey.
Swedish Pride wrote:
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
User avatar
HDNB
Site Mod
Posts: 7360
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:04 am
Location: the f-f-fu frozen north

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by HDNB »

if you are doing a high rye, look for a sweet note, a floral note and a grassy fresh mown hay note. it tastes astringent in the white but will age into a black pepper spice. the rest of the flavours for me come from the barrel itself so if you are going for a bourbon, use new wood and experiment with toasts and chars as they form more than 50% of the final palate. (even go so far as to say 70%)

the other grains will add body and sweetness but will submit to the power of rye and oak. (and smoke depending on the level of char)
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
User avatar
Honest_Liberty
Rumrunner
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:44 pm
Location: Colorad-y way

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by Honest_Liberty »

This has been my frustration since I began distilling:
I now recognize the acetone in almost every bourbon, so powerful with my sensitive nose, that it ruins it. I can taste the dirtyness.

But, without this dirtyness, I can't seem to achieve the same complexity on my AG spirits.

I've only made about 35 gallons at barrel strength in these four years, but I've thing I noticed:
My first sugarhead batches, when cut looser, nuclear aged, and then bottled a week later... Tasted the most like bourbon after I found a bottle a year later. Tasted like JD (which I consider the most foul mainstream whiskey).

Now I'm going to put in maybe 150-250ml of total heads collected after foreshots into my 5 gallon carboy of sightly looser cuts in hopes of pulling out complexity.

I'll be leaving the cap, slightly open once a month overnight... For angels share...

I move from my heater room to the garage with the seasons.

This is why I want a bigger boiler and 6" column, to get to my quantities much faster
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by NZChris »

Honest_Liberty wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:15 pmNow I'm going to put in maybe 150-250ml of total heads collected after foreshots into my 5 gallon carboy of sightly looser cuts in hopes of pulling out complexity.

I'll be leaving the cap, slightly open once a month overnight... For angels share...

I move from my heater room to the garage with the seasons.

This is why I want a bigger boiler and 6" column, to get to my quantities much faster
I have had success with only filling demijohns 2/3rds full to allow for some O2 in the headspace, then blowing across the top to exchange some air whenever I draw off samples.

Cold ages slower than hot, so much of my aging likker is protected from cold, especially rum. I suspect that cycling temperatures, especially when aging in glass, is overrated.

Adding a preheater can do more than just double the output from a pot still and is the best efficiency decision I ever made.
User avatar
Honest_Liberty
Rumrunner
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:44 pm
Location: Colorad-y way

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by Honest_Liberty »

NZChris wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:51 pm
Adding a preheater can do more than just double the output from a pot still and is the best efficiency decision I ever made.
And this is why I feel paralyzed sometimes with information overload. This is yet another avenue I need to explore
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste
User avatar
jward
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:06 pm

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by jward »

Honest_Liberty wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:15 pm This has been my frustration since I began distilling:
I now recognize the acetone in almost every bourbon, so powerful with my sensitive nose, that it ruins it. I can taste the dirtyness.

But, without this dirtyness, I can't seem to achieve the same complexity on my AG spirits.
This has been a splinter in my inexperienced mind. I keep reading the advice to not be greedy with cuts but then also keep some dirtiness to let age into complex goodness. I'd hate to age for 2 years to have an uncomplex one note wonder or something I can grab off the bottom shelf at any liquor store.
User avatar
Deplorable
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3984
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:10 pm
Location: In the East, (IYKYK)

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by Deplorable »

jward wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:35 am
Honest_Liberty wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:15 pm This has been my frustration since I began distilling:
I now recognize the acetone in almost every bourbon, so powerful with my sensitive nose, that it ruins it. I can taste the dirtyness.

But, without this dirtyness, I can't seem to achieve the same complexity on my AG spirits.
This has been a splinter in my inexperienced mind. I keep reading the advice to not be greedy with cuts but then also keep some dirtiness to let age into complex goodness. I'd hate to age for 2 years to have an uncomplex one note wonder or something I can grab off the bottom shelf at any liquor store.
I think you really just have to grab the bull by the horns, and cut wide on the stuff you intend to age, then accept the fact that its going to take time for it to sort out. I dont have much in the way of experience doing this either. I really only did about 5 runs before jumping in and filling a 5 gallon barrel with a single malt whiskey. What went in was a good bit wider than what I take for a white sipping whiskey. Stuff I intended to "age" on oak sticks in glass was wider than white cuts, but not as wide as barrel cuts. My 2 gallons of SF are starting to come around after between 4 and 5 months, and I think they'll be really good in a few more months.
Stay conservative on white booze, and gradually more lose for the stuff you intend to age. If you cut it too wide, it just means it's going to take longer to sort out. Do better than me at taking notes on your cuts and aging, and you'll be able to replicate it. Finding the sweet spot between impatients, perfect maturity, and giving too much to the angels is the key. Hope is that the angels only take the crappy stuff and leave me a delicous, complex spirit worthy of sharing with good friends.
Fear and ridicule are the tactics of weak-minded cowards and tyrants who have no other leadership talent from which to draw in order to persuade.
User avatar
higgins
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:16 am
Location: US Southern Appalachia

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by higgins »

I've only done 6 AG mashes so far and I'm yielding a gallon for aging, which is perfect for now.

One thing I'm going to do with this latest batch (low rye bourbon) is to take the 2 heads and tails jars right next to cuts and age them separately alongside the hearts. Then I can see if either/both are good by themselves, and I could blend them in as I wish.
User avatar
Honest_Liberty
Rumrunner
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:44 pm
Location: Colorad-y way

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Well I can tell you this, the real wake up call for me was when I went back after my low wines that I had let sit for my first All grain bourbon for about a year year and a half I can't remember, I decided to take a sip.

Let me just tell you this was better than any commercial booze. I could not believe how drinkable those crappy low wines were.

At this point that's all I know. I'm trying to figure out where the balance is
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste
User avatar
jward
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:06 pm

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by jward »

Deplorable wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:59 am I think you really just have to grab the bull by the horns...
I hear ya. I am considering the approach where I can hold a middle heart jar for some white with a wider cut for time on oak. I also think about not going as wide and and then do all feints run to add in on the aging. I will have to figure it out as I go.
User avatar
Durhommer
Distiller
Posts: 2399
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Bourbon Cuts for 'Complexity'

Post by Durhommer »

The few bourbon I've made I took a heart jar for sipping then added a early tail and half of a late head(pint jars)
You have two ears and one mouth for a reason....
Post Reply