Does white oak need to be aged?

[popcorn2014]

Can’t find it on here and “white oak aged” search brings up too many threads on ageing the liquor itself.


I thought I read somewhere on here the white oak itself has to be aged? I found a cheap supply of raw kiln dried white oak nearby. Only problem is that’s I believe it’s only been out of the kiln a couple months at the most.


Do I need to age the oak board, season it outside, or is it ready to be toasted/charred as is? If I age it outside I imagine I’m going to have to sand some crud off in a year or however long.


Thanks.

[still_stirrin]

"Seasoned" white oak. It typically has been "weathered", that is, kept in the weather for a year or more. Keep it dry...out of the rain so it won't rot. But let the cold and dry air as well as the hot, humid air help with the seasons. Store bought green wood is not good for casks or aging product as it has resins and tannins which will make your whiskey taste bad and possibly stink. You don't want that, do you?
ss

p.s. - Here's a good starter thread for you to read (and memorize): viewtopic.php?f=4&t=44994

[Expat]

Short answer is, Yes, Oak is seasoned before its used.

You should use the "HD Google Search" function at the top of the page. Look for Season and Oak, plenty of threads on the topic.

Edit: Still_stirrin beat me to it

[popcorn2014]

Short answer is, Yes, Oak is seasoned before its used.

You should use the "HD Google Search" function at the top of the page. Look for Season and Oak, plenty of threads on the topic.

Edit: Still_stirrin beat me to it

That’s what I did but “ageing and oak” seemed to bring up nothing but packing aging the product.



So basically my store bought plank is useless for another year or two. But if I leave it outside and protected it will be fine in a couple.

[Expat]

That’s what I did but “ageing and oak” seemed to bring up nothing but packing aging the product.

So basically my store bought plank is useless for another year or two. But if I leave it outside and protected it will be fine in a couple.

You want seasoning not aging, as you noticed the latter concerns the alcohol rather than wood itself.

But yeah, there are probably ways to treat the oak so it will eventually be useful, but it would be a lot easier to simply get pieces of an existing barrel and reuse it.

"Seasoning yards" often stack their wood directly in the elements which accelerates the process of washing out undesirable tannins. Up to 2-3 years is pretty normal so I've read. You probably don't want to wait that long for uncertain results.

[popcorn2014]

That’s what I did but “ageing and oak” seemed to bring up nothing but packing aging the product.

So basically my store bought plank is useless for another year or two. But if I leave it outside and protected it will be fine in a couple.

You want seasoning not aging, as you noticed the latter concerns the alcohol rather than wood itself.

But yeah, there are probably ways to treat the oak so it will eventually be useful, but it would be a lot easier to simply get pieces of an existing barrel and reuse it.

"Seasoning yards" often stack their wood directly in the elements which accelerates the process of washing out undesirable tannins. 2-3 is pretty normal so I've read. You probably don't want to wait that long for uncertain results.

Bummer. At least it was cheap. Thanks for the replies.

[MichiganCornhusker]

So basically my store bought plank is useless for another year or two.

No, not useless, it will work. Ideal? Maybe, maybe not.
Cut it in half and put half outside and toast/char the other half for use now.
I've used a lot of store bought white oak with good results.

[popcorn2014]

So basically my store bought plank is useless for another year or two.

No, not useless, it will work. Ideal? Maybe, maybe not.
Cut it in half and put half outside and toast/char the other half for use now.
I've used a lot of store bought white oak with good results.

I’m kinda along the same lines of why risk all the hard work over a few bucks. Doesn’t hurt to chuck it outside but for now it sounds risky.

You used yours straight away? It smells delicious and not sappy to me.

[corene1]

Here is a thought. Take some and cut it to the size you are using and soak it in water for a few days . Maybe even cycling it with hot and cold water. Take it out and dry it in the oven . Do this cycle a few times .Then toast and char as you would a seasoned piece of white oak. I know there are many threads on here talking about rapid aging of spirits , why wouldn't it work for clean new white oak? Just a thought. I see some tinkering in my future.

[shadylane]

I found a cheap supply of raw kiln dried white oak nearby. Only problem is that’s I believe it’s only been out of the kiln a couple months at the most.
Do I need to age the oak board, season it outside, or is it ready to be toasted/charred as is?

I'd say it's ready to be toasted/charred as is.
But then, I'm guilty of using chopped up whiskey barrels for wood

[popcorn2014]

Here is a thought. Take some and cut it to the size you are using and soak it in water for a few days . Maybe even cycling it with hot and cold water. Take it out and dry it in the oven . Do this cycle a few times .Then toast and char as you would a seasoned piece of white oak. I know there are many threads on here talking about rapid aging of spirits , why wouldn't it work for clean new white oak? Just a thought. I see some tinkering in my future.

I guess it also doesn’t hurt to take a small harness or maybe 200mls and throw a toasted cube of it in and seeing how it comes out after a month next to a brewhaus one.


Don’t quite follow what ya mean about the water changes. Wouldn’t that take out all the flavors and stuff I want? Or are you saying try it on water and smell taste the water?

[seamusm53]

What we and commercial distilleries do as routine is not necessarily required. I suspect commercial cooper and distilling entities use wood cut in advance in large measure for logistical reasons.
I agree that using freshly cut wood is probably not the best but do I know that as factually true? No, I am not aware of that experiment.
Store bought kiln dried wood most likely addresses the concerns about freshly cut wood and I doubt that leaving it out to weather more adds further liquor ageing benefits.

[OtisT]

My understanding and experience is that the kiln dried wood will work, but it contains more tannins than the same wood that has been seasoned. Tannins cause a bitter/astringent results, and if your spirit winds up too bitter/astringent you simply need to let it sit longer to work that part out. So seasoned wood should give you desirable results sooner.

My understanding is that seasoning the wood outdoors washes some of the tannins out of the wood through wetting and drying cycles. There may be other chemical processes going on, but I can’t speak to that. (Have read some about this, but not much.)

I leave my wood out in the weather, rain and sun and all. Have not had any rot yet. Some of the commercial wood yards for seasoning wood do it by stacking stalves and merrins outside, though I don’t know if that is how they all do it. I agree with the logic of corina, that you can wet/dry sticks yourself a few cycles to help “wash” out some tannins. Wetting/drying wood too fast will crack the wood, so you would not want to force the issue if you were making barrels.

Some of my reading on various types of wood used for barrels say that the types of wood having more tannins than American white oak (AWO) should be seasoned 2 years. I infer from multiple statements like this that they feel AWO only needs seasoning 1 year to be up to their standards. Example: The recent issue of “whisky advocate” mentioned French Oak and a variety of Japanese Oak have a lot of tannins as compared to AWO so they season that wood two years before use.

Otis

[popcorn2014]

Great stuff here, much appreciated. It sounds like this is worth experimenting with, as long as it’s cautious to see how it works before throwing it all in.


I get the theory of rapidly seasoning by washing out the tannins, but would this process not was out some of the properties we want? If it didn’t it seems like wood could be used indefinitely which isn’t the case

[corene1]

So after my post I went outside and got some fresh 1/2 inch thick kiln dried oak that I make my lids from, a couple of pieces I cut from a sherry barrel staves and some well seasoned white oak that I recently cut into 1 inch slabs. No toasting or charring has been done. I put them in quart jars with fresh water and nuked them for 2 minuets each. After 1 hour you can see the difference. The barrel staves on the right have a very nice aroma with a hint of sherry and no color. The oak slab on the left is also has a quite pleasant aroma and no color. The fresh kiln dried oak in the center has a similar aroma but is just a bit acrid and lots of color. Now I think I will try and see what needs to be done to the fresh kiln dried oak to make it react the same as the seasoned oak. Any ideas?

[jonnys_spirit]

Water ain’t 125 proof likker but look what it did to the grand canyon.... Now just think if that river had been 125 proof likker and what the grand canyon would be now....

Maybe season some unseasoned in some likker for a while? As much as you can cram in there. Like a sac run - then run it again and your wood is now like your liver - seasoned and yoir likker aint wasted either.

Ciao Mi Bella !!!
-johann

[corene1]

Water ain’t 125 proof likker but look what it did to the grand canyon.... Now just think if that river had been 125 proof likker and what the grand canyon would be now....

Maybe season some unseasoned in some likker for a while? As much as you can cram in there. Like a sac run - then run it again and your wood is now like your liver - seasoned and yoir likker aint wasted either.

Ciao Mi Bella !!!
-johann

Not trying to age water, trying to simulate seasoned oak from new kiln dried oak in a shorter time frame. I do have a jar of oak pieces in liquor. I keep it there for aging my Scotch recipes since Scotch should be aged using once used oak. By the way the liquor from that jar is no bueno. It's the big jar on the right.

[popcorn2014]

Water ain’t 125 proof likker but look what it did to the grand canyon.... Now just think if that river had been 125 proof likker and what the grand canyon would be now....

Maybe season some unseasoned in some likker for a while? As much as you can cram in there. Like a sac run - then run it again and your wood is now like your liver - seasoned and yoir likker aint wasted either.

Ciao Mi Bella !!!
-johann

Not trying to age water, trying to simulate seasoned oak from new kiln dried oak in a shorter time frame. I do have a jar of oak pieces in liquor. I keep it there for aging my Scotch recipes since Scotch should be aged using once used oak. By the way the liquor from that jar is no bueno. It's the big jar on the right.

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Your plan is to just change the water a few times and see if the wood can be rinsed of tannins to get it the same as wel seasoned oak really quick right?

[Single Malt Yinzer]

https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/index.ph ... _for_aging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Barrel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Unaged oak will have hemicellulose, tannins and lactones. Treat that by toasting or charring you'll change hemicellulose to create color, toasty & caramelized flavors/aromas. Lignin is the one that aging will bring out. It's the hardest of the group to get. UV light can accelerate it. And as stated below there are other volatile elements that aren't great in raw wood, but will evaporate over time.

From an age perspective commercial cooperages age 1-2 years for normal orders. You can request more but you better have some $$$ to pay for it.

Of all the things us HDer's do I think wood is the hardest part. The time/processes involved are not easy to replicate easily, with home equipment, or the sizes we deal with.

[corene1]

Yes, my plan was to see if a person could do some sort of a rapid soak and dry procedure using heated water and oven drying to cycle the fresh kiln dried oak to match older seasoned oak. I never considered the part UV rays play in seasoning. I will dry it today and then soak it again after it dries. I am certainly no scientist just curious. I already have a good stock of seasoned oak but thought this might help the performance of my oak lids I make for aging in a jar as well as folks that don't have access to good white oak from the forest.

[popcorn2014]

Yes, my plan was to see if a person could do some sort of a rapid soak and dry procedure using heated water and oven drying to cycle the fresh kiln dried oak to match older seasoned oak. I never considered the part UV rays play in seasoning. I will dry it today and then soak it again after it dries. I am certainly no scientist just curious. I already have a good stock of seasoned oak but thought this might help the performance of my oak lids I make for aging in a jar as well as folks that don't have access to good white oak from the forest.

Outstanding. Please keep us informed with your results.

[corene1]

Here is the third cycle of hot water to oven drying. Still has color but the aroma has gone to a nice smooth oak smell. Very similar to the long term seasoned oak. Today I think I will toast and char a piece and put it in a small amount of white whisky I have and see what happens.

[OtisT]

Thanks for doing this corena. I’ve been using vacuum to soak mine, then drying over heater vents in the house. Can’t wait to see how your turns out. How long of a soak in the white whisky will it take, ya think, before you have opinion on the results? Otis

[corene1]

I really don't. So far for testing I put 185 degree water into the jar and seal the lid. As it cools over night it forms a vacuum. I dry it in the oven at 200 degrees the next day and repeat the process. First cycle had some bad aromas coming from the jar so I am guessing that the first week in the spirit should pull out any remaining bad tannins if they are present. Another one of those time will tell experiments.

[raketemensch]

I did the soak/dry vs seasoning experiment, and while I like the seasoned oak better, the speed-seasoned was very workable too. I even microwaved it, IIRC.

I’m glad to see Corrine is still using the wood mason lids. I’ve been meaning to make myself some for ages now, but just am not that crafty with wood. Maybe with a perfectly- sized holesaw, but then I’d have a hole in the middle.

Someday...

[corene1]

I did 3 cycles of the new oak in water and yes I did the microwave heat up just like the rapid aging process. I have a small piece in a small pint jar with some white whisky right now. Day 2 looks promising. If you use a hole saw to make the caps just get some 1/4 inch dowels from the wood working section and use them for plugs. That is what I did.

[OtisT]

If you use a hole saw to make the caps just get some 1/4 inch dowels from the wood working section and use them for plugs. That is what I did.

Would make a nice top for young chittlins too.

[DAD300]

There are dif reasons to season wood.

A furniture builder would season wood wet/dry, hot/cold, kiln or chemical process to make it dimensional stable. Say you're a cooperage building a barrel and don't want a leak, dimensional stability may be more important than making dominoes.

A cooperage would also cut the wood differently than a furniture maker. The cooper is going to steam and bend his wood.

If you're looking for wood to toast/char and drop into a jar of white dog, do you care if it has finished shrinking, contracting or if you can bend it?

I think for making dominoes aging booze, you should care more about the time of year it is cut. When the sap (sugar) content is highest.

I tend to cut trees in the late winter when there are less leaves to deal with and the sap is high. I drop them and leave them lay. Off the ground a little if possible. But until I can get to them. I make approx 1" x 1" x 10" sticks (fits into an uncut beer keg) on a 10" table saw. I toast them in a gas grill.

In the past we've had lots of discussion about grain and endgrain. I don't think that matters...I don't care how good you are at operating any given saw. You are going to constantly be in and out of the grain. In fact I would say you want to get as much grain contact as possible to extract the sugars.

Next remember that there is a lot of dif between getting color and maturing the spirit. Nothing wrong with getting some quick color, but only time can handle the flavor.

[corene1]

There are dif reasons to season wood.

A furniture builder would season wood wet/dry, hot/cold, kiln or chemical process to make it dimensional stable. Say you're a cooperage building a barrel and don't want a leak, dimensional stability may be more important than making dominoes.

A cooperage would also cut the wood differently than a furniture maker. The cooper is going to steam and bend his wood.

If you're looking for wood to toast/char and drop into a jar of white dog, do you care if it has finished shrinking, contracting or if you can bend it?

I think for making dominoes aging booze, you should care more about the time of year it is cut. When the sap (sugar) content is highest.

I tend to cut trees in the late winter when there are less leaves to deal with and the sap is high. I drop them and leave them lay. Off the ground a little if possible. But until I can get to them. I make approx 1" x 1" x 10" sticks (fits into an uncut beer keg) on a 10" table saw. I toast them in a gas grill.

In the past we've had lots of discussion about grain and endgrain. I don't think that matters...I don't care how good you are at operating any given saw. You are going to constantly be in and out of the grain. In fact I would say you want to get as much grain contact as possible to extract the sugars.

Next remember that there is a lot of dif between getting color and maturing the spirit. Nothing wrong with getting some quick color, but only time can handle the flavor.

Do you notice a flavor difference between unseasoned kiln dried oak and seasoned kiln dried oak? I know years ago I did some aging with fresh unseasoned kiln dried white oak right from the lumber yard and it had some foul off flavors that time did not correct. That is when I switched to well seasoned white oak . It made quite a difference in initial flavor as well as long term flavor. Color was not the goal but flavor was.

[DAD300]

I haven't purposely done anything with kiln dried wood.

What I'm using seasons in the woods, dries in a barn for a minimum time.

I do this with white oak, maple and cherry. I toast them in a gas grill to a medium-dark color. No heavy char. Cherry and maple both finish sweeter than white oak and give color quicker.

Basically I started using other woods so that rum wouldn't taste like bourbon. My taste buds may be weak, but if you finish any white liquor on white oak long enough, it just becomes whiskey! Don't get me wrong, it might taste great, but if I'm trying to make dif products, I want them to be very different. I've had too many commercial rums, aged in x-bourbon barrels that just taste like bad bourbon (Mount Gay).