Oats for “Mouth feel”

[Andyinak]

i Like the why oats improve mouth feel in my beer, but I am curious how you get that mouth feel from oats to translate into a spirit. Do you add oats in the aging?

[Twisted Brick]

The rich, creamy mouthfeel you perceive in your drink comes from the beta-glucans (gums and starches) in oats. As oats are mashed, these beta-glucans add to the viscosity of the wort and ultimately to your spirit. Used in small percentages, oats are not difficult to convert, but used in higher percentages in a mash, they become problematic and require special handling.

[SaltyStaves]

Rolled Oats in a sugar wash will do the same thing. In the variation of TFFV that I make with them, I literally pour boiling water over them, cover for two minutes and discard them and keep the liquid. Its very viscous.

[RC Al]

I wonder if you could just add some oat flour?

Theres a few mentions kicking around of using water that has had potatoes boiled in it in the mash too
viewtopic.php?f=101&t=16491&p=6877875&h ... l#p6876066

[RC Al]

Rolled Oats in a sugar wash will do the same thing. In the variation of TFFV that I make with them, I literally pour boiling water over them, cover for two minutes and discard them and keep the liquid. Its very viscous.

what quantities / ratios do you use?

[SaltyStaves]

what quantities / ratios do you use?

85% Wheat Bran/15% Rolled Oats.

[RC Al]

So you dont add either of the grains to the wash at all?

[SaltyStaves]

So you dont add either of the grains to the wash at all?

Correct. It takes a little longer than Teddysad's method to ferment out, but I've never had an issue.

[Yummyrum]

i Like the why oats improve mouth feel in my beer, but I am curious how you get that mouth feel from oats to translate into a spirit. Do you add oats in the aging?

Does anyone have any idea about where in a run the mouthfeel comes over ?
Does it occur more or less in pot verses reflux still ?

Mouthfeel is something I’m aware of , but not something that has got me excited enough to explore . I’ve never really bothered to note it but I guess I’m curious now .

[thecroweater]

Oat whiskey is smooth as silk, guess you could call it mouth feel. Grist oat berries are a ship ton easier to work with than rolled oats as rolled oats cooked to porridge, if you are step mashing you can do a good glucanase rest but without hulls it is still a bit of a nightmare. This is not something I've read but knowledge gained from bitter experience, now if it is a mixed grain bill it will be less of an issue and if you are using some oat berries the inclusion of rolled oats will be mobs easier to work with. The inclusion of oats in a bill is very worthwhile, can smooth out a lot of bills and can just about eliminate the dreaded sugar bite. I have not worked with oat flour but the thought does sent shudders down my spine, reckon I'd try a bit in a stock pot before I went all out on that idea.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

I've been adding a considerable amount of crimped oats to my corn whiskey.

I'm shooting for 2.5 lbs per gallon and I boil 14 gallons at a time. A bag of corn is 50 lbs, so I like to divide by half to get two mashes.
So my bill ends up being 25lbs of corn and 10 lbs of oats.
I just mix the two together and grind them to a coarse flour.
I boil my water and dump it in the mash tun with the flour, and mash as regular with high temp enzymes.

I havent had any problem with my mash being too thick, or with ferments taking any longer than usual.
In fact, I haven't only noticed a more velvety mouthfeel in my spirit, but it has a slightly "toasted" quality to it as well.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Some of my favorite is just straight uncle Jesse all oat, run to 92%. I believe that was done in a less than optimal ccvm setting, but I get 92% from the flute and would be perfect for the oats. As always, benefits from aging, I recommend once used rum sticks. Flute and rum sticks, easy oat uj.... sounds right up down under lane, ehh? Give it a shot.

[Andyinak]

So, the beta-glucans come over with the distillate? I would start them in the ferment and the mouth-feel will translate in the finished product?

[jonnys_spirit]

I've run both feed store oats in husks and the cheapest grocery store oats. Pretty much add some to every mash and I'll run it all through the grinder for best conversion. Sometimes i'll toast some of em up in the oven just one the verge of medium toast too. Either way I feel like it makes spirit with benefits...

I might try my hand at an oat UJ one of these days.

Cheers!
-jonny

[Steve3730]

Could lactose give you the same silky mouth feel without extra work of working with oats?

[Andyinak]

Could lactose give you the same silky mouth feel without extra work of working with oats?

I use lactose in most of my brews. The mouth-feel is a little different than oats, but really pleasant. I am still curious how any of that will translate during distillation.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

I am still curious how any of that will translate during distillation.

Bottom line it does. Give it a try yourself then come back and update.

[still_stirrin]

Oats are high in beta glucans.

But, malted rye is even higher. So, add a small percentage of rye malt to your grainbill to increase the mouthfeel. But, to avoid the strong “sourdough” flavors from rye, keep it at less than 10% of the total grainbill.

I think you’ll like the contribution.
ss

edit - some disillers add glycerin to the product to increase body. I don’t advocate its use, however, as I don’t care for the flavor impact.

[Twisted Brick]

So, the beta-glucans come over with the distillate? I would start them in the ferment and the mouth-feel will translate in the finished product?

Here are some interesting numbers:

It’s actually amazing how much oats will raise the beta-glucan content of a mash. A study looking at this found that a mash consisting of 100% malted barley had a beta-glucan content of only 20 mg/L, adding just 10% unmalted oats increased the beta-glucan content to 393 mg/L. Replacing 40% of the malted barley with unmalted oats increased the beta-glucan content to 1,949 mg/L, which is a 97-fold increase!2

The Schnitzenbaumer study on unmalted oats also noted that beta-glucan in concentrations lower than 800 mg/L is not the predominant viscosity-altering substance in wort implying that proteins and starches also contribute to the mouthfeel viscosity. With this logic, it would suggest that to achieve a more viscous mouthfeel by the use of oats would require about ≥18% of oats as a percentage of the grist to get over this 900 mg/L threshold (this is in a mash with a total of about 20 total pounds of grist).

Like a lot of the oat-experienced here, I have achieved a noticeable mouthfeel with <10% oats in the mash. According to above, this could be the result of oats' proteins and starches. Some distillers on ADI have reported the 18% threshold as well.

Here is the full text from A Case for Brewing with Oats , which shares a lot of information on mashing and fermentation. It deals with oats destined for beer, but a lot of it will translate directly over to distilling. To identify how and when beta-glucans come over in the distillate, maybe test individual jars when making cuts?

Here is the full Schnitenbaumer study, which covers much more ground in greater detail. For those who are crunched for time, it mentions that oat flour is practical up 70% of the grist, and recommends exogenous enzymes in mashes with >30% oats.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Endogenous enzymes?

Does this imply enzymes that come from the oats themselves? As in malted oat?

[Twisted Brick]

Oops! Thanks for the heads-up HP! Fixed it.

[Hillbilly Popstar]

Lol, It makes more sense now, but i was legitimately asking. I'm new to oats.

[Andyinak]

Wow! That was great info. I know I enjoy using oats in my brews, I am just having a hard imagining how that moves over in the evaporation. Looking forward to experimenting. Do you oat guys use the backseat?

[still_stirrin]

Wow! Looking forward to experimenting. Do you oat guys use the backseat?

The “backseat”? It’s been decades since I’ve used “the backseat”

But when I make a bourbon, I use oat flakes (Quaker quick oats) from the grocery store in the recipe. And, after stripping, I DO save a little of the backset for starting the next ferment. The backset is acidic, so I use it to drop the pH for the gluco-amylase enzyme addition.

Gotta’ have a little oats in the bourbon because it helps to smooth everything out.
ss

[DAD300]

Again, we do 99% oat mashes, ferments and the oil, smoothness comes over through five plates just fine.

I assume the oils come over in the tails as the temp/heat is highest. More tails, more oils. This holds true with Distilled Gin also.

Oats, the smoothness they add, can take a lot of time off your aging. That and better cuts.

[thecroweater]

If you do a single malt oat you will see quite a layer of fat in the finished ferment and in the stillage so some oils coming over would not shock the pants off me. I have sometimes had problems with hazing after tempering which maybe a bit of oils in mix situation.

[Opdog]

I really like the mellowness I get from adding oats to my bourbon mashes, but have had terrible luck with single malt oat recipes. The last one I tried got a huge butyric infection that stunk up my whole garage. It took me weeks to get rid of the smell.

I used a one and done style mash with rolled oats from the feed store. In retrospect, I probably should have:

• toasted the oats as they were not the freshest; and

• followed a step mashing procedure like you would with a heavy rye bill (add a rest reduce the slimy yuckiness)

I don't claim to be an expert on oats, but the next batch will be milled whole oats mashed using the above stepped mash.

If anyone has a proven procedure with appropriate temps, please share!

[DAD300]

Use enzymes, watch Ph and as the ferment nears completion, let the Ph crash and add any tails or some previous heads or tails alcohol to prevent infection. Any alcohol you add, you will get back at distillation.

Milled oats may be more likely to get infected than Steamed/rolled oats.

[Evil Wizard]

I am finding that using oat bran is just as useful for mouth feel and suppressing esters. Bran is cheaper and easier to work with. I just give it a long strong simmer with hi temp amylase to thin it out. I rinse it out because I prefer not to ferment on solids.

[TDick]

I just saw a very favorable Fred Minnick review of Dettling Cask Strength, an Alabama bourbon.
I wanted to find out more and I found this.
Everything he does is small batch or single barrel with a 6 grain mash bill,
Corn, rye, malted wheat, two types of malt and oatmeal.
ps I skipped the second half of the video about grilling wings.