Damn! My barrel's too big!

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Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by n_plains_drifter »

Let me preempt y'all:

THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!

TLDNR: Bought two new 20 l barrels from a coworker 8 years ago for aging wine. They are from what I believe to be a very reputable local cooper. Never got around to using them. Now I'm here, with a more important usage.

I've been running 80l gens of UJSSM. I'm on Gen 8, and done for a 20 L barrel. I'm not a fan of early gens from a flavor profile, so I started collecting at gen 4, and after my next strip/run I should have a full barrel and ready to lay her down.

Today I was making a couple of cradles for my barrels, and as I was sizing everything up, I started to look critically at the barrel I was using for measuring and testing. Brought out a 23l bucket for size comparison, and it's way smaller than the barrel

I might be whacked, but there is no way in my geometrically challenged brain that my barrel's are 20 l. My guess is that they are actually 40, but I'm going to have to check that as I hydrate the barrels. I did notice that 10+ years has many of the staves extremely dry and lots of significant openings. I'll have to do a serious swelling to get everything sealed up for a final volume measurement.

Damn! I thought I was ready to put one down, but I think I'm only half way there!
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Deplorable »

If I am reading right, 10 years is a long time to leave a barrel empty. Submerge it in hot water to soak for a few days. It will swell back to water tight.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

10 years is a long time......I hate leaving barrels dry for ANY period of time.
One thing Ive learned the hard way is.....with a barrel that has been dry long term be sure to make sure that all of the barrel hoops are exactly where they where before the barrel dried out.
You can usually see the marks where they belong if they have moved.
To loose and it wont seal up......to tight and you risk staves cracking and stressing other parts of the barrel.
Over time Ive bought a few very dry second hand barrels and tried getting them back into working condition.
The best way ive found to get them to seal is to fill them with quite hot but not boiling water...then dump the whole barrel into another container full of very hot water so that as much of the barrel as possible is submerged.
Use the bathtub if you have to.
Doing it that way ive had about an 90% success rate on very dry barrels......before doing it that way it was about 60%
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Windswept »

and think about keeping the water that you put in the barrel for proofing purposes!
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by still_stirrin »

I don’t recommend using water to store casks when not filled with spirits. The water will tend to grow mold and that can ruin any future usage of a cask.

If nothing else, get some cheap liquor store wine and fill the cask with that. It’ll keep it swollen and keep the “critters” from growing inside. Plus, if you’re selective about the wine, it may actually improve the wood for when you get back to filling the cask with a spirit.

And for a long-stored (dry) cask, you’ll have to work to get it to hold liquid again. SBB gave you a good method for reswelling and (hopefully) sealing it again. In the end, you may just have to cut it up and use the wood in glass. Nothing more frustrating than a leaky barrel.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by n_plains_drifter »

Thanks for the input/ help. After thinking on the problem, I finally realized that a) SWMBO wasn't going to let me put a barrel in the bathtub, and that b) a 50 gallon trash can was a good idea, I sized everything up. Then I had a brainstorm: use my BOP!

Minor mods were required: Pull the thermometer and plug the hole. Got that solved and fired up the burner last night.

The barrel was in pretty rough shape, literally daylight showing between staves, and in at least one instance, a stave that was 5 mm depressed from the others. I heated water, positioned the barrel and let her fill up. At the same time, I poured hot water on the upfacing head to get the ends of the staves and head to swell.

Set for three hours with one end down. Pulled the barrel and set it on it's side and I took a rubber mallet and started whacking on the staves, to get them to reposition and hopefully get a bigger circumference. After getting the staves aligned as best I could, I dropped the other end in and reheated the water.

This morning took it out and while it still leaked in a couple of spots, it was WAY better. Flipped again and hopefully I'm on the way to a fully sealed barrel.

For perspective, that is a 75 liter pot. I've got to believe my barrel is about 40 l, don't you think?
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Deplorable »

I hope you get it sealed. Get yourself some bees wax to fill any persistent weeps, and with any luck, you'll be good to go after a few days of soaking.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Once you get the wood swollen again ( after a couple of days) you can very lightly tap some of the hoops up to try to fix remaining leaks......gently gently, a litte at a time.
Thats been my experience anyway.
Nice looking barrel.....hope it comes good for you.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Yummyrum »

n_plains_drifter wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:38 am For perspective, that is a 75 liter pot. I've got to believe my barrel is about 40 l, don't you think?
If thats a 75l BOP , I be placing bets it closer to a 100l barrel .
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:00 pm
n_plains_drifter wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:38 am For perspective, that is a 75 liter pot. I've got to believe my barrel is about 40 l, don't you think?
If thats a 75l BOP , I be placing bets it closer to a 100l barrel .
100ish L is my guess to, going be a lot of work in filling it thats for sure......Ive a year filling one of about that size not long ago.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by rubberduck71 »

Yeah, yeah, I know most folks on here aren't fans of the YouTube stuff, but there were some good barrel reconditioning tips given by Jesse:
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by n_plains_drifter »

Deplorable wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:07 am I hope you get it sealed. Get yourself some bees wax to fill any persistent weeps, and with any luck, you'll be good to go after a few days of soaking.
Deplorable, how do you use the bees wax? I was thinking that you smear it in and then heat (heat gun, torch??) to get it to fill better, or is that overkill?
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Deplorable »

n_plains_drifter wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:55 am
Deplorable wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:07 am I hope you get it sealed. Get yourself some bees wax to fill any persistent weeps, and with any luck, you'll be good to go after a few days of soaking.
Deplorable, how do you use the bees wax? I was thinking that you smear it in and then heat (heat gun, torch??) to get it to fill better, or is that overkill?
If you use a bee's wax candle, you can light it and let the drips fall into the gap, then after the wax cools shave off the excess.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by n_plains_drifter »

The good news is that I pulled the barrel this afternoon and set it in the cradle. Couple of slow seeps, but she seems to be holding. I'm letting her sit horizontal for a day or two half full and then going to drain and refill. For whatever reason, a crap load of wax ended up in my BOP. I wonder if the cooper waxes the staves before assembling to reduce leak potential? I definitely saw some wax on the exterior of the heads before I dropped her into the BOP.

Anybody here ever heard of waxing staves? Wild Ass Guess: maybe there was a total of 5 g of wax residue floating on the water (and coating the sides of BOP at the height of the water).
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Now that its in the cradle Id try to dry it a bit and see exactly where those weeps are......a tiny tap on the hoops might just stop them.
Id keep it properly full at this stage , all the better to see any leaks.
Long term best to get the water out asap, and get some spirit in there, Ive never left water in one longer that I have to.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

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The wax in your BOP was likely from the joints between the head and staves. A common practice.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

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Deplorable wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:47 am The wax in your BOP was likely from the joints between the head and staves. A common practice.
Common practice by whom ? I don't think my Cooper would take kindly to you telling him that .
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:23 am
Deplorable wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:47 am The wax in your BOP was likely from the joints between the head and staves. A common practice.
Common practice by whom ? I don't think my cooper would take kindly to you telling him that .
Barrel mill does it, and just about every wine barrel I've looked at at the winery has a bead of bees wax at the joint.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I use a heat gun to heat the leaky area then buff it with beeswax. Like soldering this will draw the melted wax into the joint. Then i’ll buff with some high grit sandpaper and repeat till it stops weeping. I’ve heard of some barrels being coated on the inside with beeswax for long term non-oaking storage. Not sure how common it is but i’ve never seen it.

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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Deplorable wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:29 am Barrel mill does it, and just about every wine barrel I've looked at at the winery has a bead of bees wax at the joint.
Well I dunno who these Barrel Mill people are ...don't have them here ......but any self respecting Cooper this side of the pond ain't gunna use wax to seal a keg. Its done proper or not at all.
You really think those big wineries and distilleries are gunna be running around sticking bits of old bees wax into leaky joints ?
Ya either go cheap and buy a shit barrel or spend some money on a well built one.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by n_plains_drifter »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:58 pm Now that its in the cradle Id try to dry it a bit and see exactly where those weeps are......a tiny tap on the hoops might just stop them.
Id keep it properly full at this stage , all the better to see any leaks.
Long term best to get the water out asap, and get some spirit in there, Ive never left water in one longer that I have to.
My hoops have small brads in them that anchor them in place, perhaps 2-3 around the circumference. I assume for shipping or something. Any reason I can't just pull them so that I can adjust the hoops?

Thanks, Drifter
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by n_plains_drifter »

Mystery solved. The barrel is 60l. Filled it yesterday with clean water to check, and she seems really tight. But that begs the question: What do i do now? I'll start a separate thread for that question.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

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n_plains_drifter wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:13 am Mystery solved. The barrel is 60l. Filled it yesterday with clean water to check, and she seems really tight. But that begs the question: What do i do now? I'll start a separate thread for that question.
Since straight water could cause mold, maybe some super cheap spirit from the local spirit shop??? Realizing that 60L is a HUGE volume to fill... :crazy:

Maybe half water, half spirit (or even wine/sherry???) just to take the edge off the price. Might have a good spirit when you're done, or even one that can be redistilled for improvement. I was bringing up sherry since I just read on my Tullamore Dew that it's aged on oak & sherry barrels.

Good luck!!!

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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by The Baker »

And if it is not fairly full, turn it from time to time so most of the wood is kept damp.
Roll it around, and stand it on one end then the other.

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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

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n_plains_drifter wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:13 am Mystery solved. The barrel is 60l. Filled it yesterday with clean water to check, and she seems really tight. But that begs the question: What do i do now? I'll start a separate thread for that question.
You’ll here a lot of folk say if its not full , it will leak .
I got a 96L ex bourbon keg . I’ve never been able to get is much past half full . It hadn’t leaked in 18 months . I put Rum in mine at 78% abv , its dropped to about 75% last I checked .
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:16 am
Deplorable wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:29 am Barrel mill does it, and just about every wine barrel I've looked at at the winery has a bead of bees wax at the joint.
Well I dunno who these Barrel Mill people are ...don't have them here ......but any self respecting Cooper this side of the pond ain't gunna use wax to seal a keg. Its done proper or not at all.
You really think those big wineries and distilleries are gunna be running around sticking bits of old bees wax into leaky joints ?
Ya either go cheap and buy a shit barrel or spend some money on a well built one.
The Barrel Mill is actually a well-respected cooperage here in America. Anticipating a severe barrel shortage caused by the explosive growth of distilleries in the US led to an aggressive expansion/acquisition push in 2016 that succeeded in Barrel Mill's tripling output and establishing them as a major supplier to the wine and spirits industry. To put this demand in perspective, in 2020 America was home to over 2000 distilleries, with 10 million barrels resting in KY rickhouses alone. American distillery Heaven Hill was already (2019) filling more than 1,000 barrels a day to meet the growing demand of its thirsty customers. It is because of the forward-thinking men and women who run The Barrel Mill that we can enjoy many of the delicious bourbons we do.

From my reading, there are a number of American distilleries that have incorporated high-tech engineering into their machinery and processes while the basic design of a barrel remains largely unchanged. Cost and time-saving tools like computer-controlled charring or lasers and optical scanners that can perform a previously manual task with unmatched tolerances and consistency. It also appears that the practice of waxing a barrel's croze (skip to 8:23) has become routine. As Deplorable alluded to in its extensive use in wine barrels, the integration of 'barrel' wax portends to be a proactive advancement in barrel construction rather than a reactive remedy to resolve a leaky joint. Certainly, as a natural product wood has its imperfections, but its also clear the barrel industry here has instituted rigid quality standards (some are ISO 9000 certified) that mandate barrel testing before and after shipping to the customer.

With Deplorable's generous help, I recently secured a once-used 5gal bourbon barrel from The Barrel Mill and love it. It is very well built and weighs a ton (actually 31lbs empty). Currently residing in it is a carefully-crafted higher-rye bourbon. After I got it, I did some background reading on The Barrel Mill and was pleased to read this:
“I was shopping for a barrel supplier, and happened to go to a whiskey awards dinner. Out of 26 winners, 25 had been aged in Barrel Mill barrels. We aged Whiskey Advocate’s Craft Whiskey of the Year in Barrel Mill Barrels.”

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To be able to apply the quality of a Barrel Mill barrel to my own hard-earned spirit makes me a happy camper indeed.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

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Twisted Brick wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:26 pm Anticipating a severe barrel shortage caused by the explosive growth of distilleries in the US led to an aggressive expansion/acquisition push in 2016 that succeeded in Barrel Mill's tripling output and establishing them as a major supplier to the wine and spirits industry. To put this demand in perspective, in 2020 America was home to over 2000 distilleries, with 10 million barrels resting in KY rickhouses alone. American distillery Heaven Hill was already (2019) filling more than 1,000 barrels a day to meet the growing demand of its thirsty customers. It is because of the forward-thinking men and women who run The Barrel Mill that we can enjoy many of the delicious bourbons we do.
Nice marketing blurb.
Twisted Brick wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:26 pm It also appears that the practice of waxing a barrel's croze (skip to 8:23) has become routine.
Doesnt matter how its put it still sounds like a short cut to save them time and money to me, I stand by what I said. A well made barrel made by a quality Cooper who knows his trade needs no wax.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Badmotivator »

Salty, my research leads me to think that wax use is extensive in cooperage.

“ A natural wax is then put between the joints to prevent minor leaks from happening in the first 10 minutes that whisky is put in the barrel before the wood has a chance to swell.” from https://vinepair.com/articles/bourbon-t ... cooperage/

“ The final step for the lids is the dipping of the edges into paraffin wax. The wax ensures the airtightness between the lid and the hull of the barrel.” about the Brown-Forman cooperage, I believe, here: https://www.whisky.com/information/know ... ction.html

At 3:15 in this video you can see a croze-waxing robot :
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

Post by Deplorable »

Trash talk all you want. At some point you still have to buy and import AMERICAN oak for your aging wood. Mighty fine barrels a plenty here.
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Re: Damn! My barrel's too big!

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Badmotivator wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:53 pm my research leads me to think that wax use is extensive in cooperage.
.
Great video, Badmotivator. It was interesting to see how another cooperage, looking to stay competitive, invested heavily in automation, putting their unique spin on product/process improvement. Thanks for sharing.

Here's a video that shows the Brown and Foreman head-waxing machinery (skip to 5:45) cited in your post while the video's hosts explain the process and their reasoning behind doing it.



It doesn’t look nearly as high-tech as the sexy waxing robot your video showed, but Brown-Forman a while back invested $45M to implement leading-edge performance to their Heading and Staving departments, which produce 2500 barrels a day.

For a croze-waxing operation, this one's pretty cool:




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