Preparing old barrel staves

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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ng71xy
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Preparing old barrel staves

Post by ng71xy »

G'day everyone, had a bit of a search and couldn’t find much.
I got a few old Woodford reserve barrel staves. I’m planning on sanding them back down to ‘clean’ oak, then toast and char.

My problem is trying to sand the outside of the barrel down enough to get rid of the ‘grey’ which is in the grain. It goes fairly deep. I don’t wanna try and sand it all out and lose half the thickness of the stave.
Would getting 99% of the grey out be good enough??, or has anyone got a secret way to get it out??

A picture says a thousand words :ewink:

Cheers fellas
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NZChris
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by NZChris »

It's already been toasted.

There won't be any grey left after you've alligator charred it.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by CopperFiend »

As Chris says above. If you're worried about the weathered outside, you dont need to get it totally clean with the sander, just maybe the first 5mm or so, then you're into good clean wood, even if the colour hasn't changed. The colour the wood goes is just a weathering change.
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NZChris
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by NZChris »

5mm is a lot. 0.5mm would be closer unless the barrel was extremely old and weathered.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by Demy »

If you want to look better you can smooth but it is not necessary to go deep ... alternatively you could evaluate a suitable detergent.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

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I don't let detergent anywhere near anything that is in contact with my likker.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

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NZChris wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 10:52 pm It's already been toasted.

There won't be any grey left after you've alligator charred it.
I thought it woulda already been toasted, but it’s still very light coloured, it’s not as dark as off cuts of American oak I’ve toasted my self, cheers for the heads up :thumbup:

It’s pretty bad outside, but not quiet 5mm, 1 or so should do, woulda been interesting to weigh them before and after!!
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by NZChris »

Try doing a test using three nukes... https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38991, or this... https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55301.

Both methods can give you a good idea of how well a wood is going to work and how much you will need to use for the rest of your aging spirit.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by jonnys_spirit »

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The bottom most staves on this stack have been out in the weather for a few years so far and have developed a pretty significant “bark”. When I prep these for use i’ll use plenty of water, a wire brush, and maybe a stainless scrubber. Not too worried about it’s natural patina but i’ll remove most of the gunk. I’ll toast a couple batches in the oven at slightly different temps and re-char in some cases. Chop-saw them into useful lengths then rip as needed. I’ve started using widemouth (4”) gallon jars with natural cork tops and prefer to size the stave for a single piece per jar. They going to be stored in 125pf likker which will take care of any nasties that might be left after the preliminary scrubbing and hot oven / blowtorch treatment.

Cheers!
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

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ng71xy wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 10:43 pm I’m planning on sanding them back down to ‘clean’ oak, then toast and char.
I do the same thing except I use a draw knife or hand plane to shave it down. It's a little quicker than sanding and I was always worried about sand paper depositing some grit into the wood. Don't worry about the little strips of gray that are down in the grain. Like others said the torch will take care of that.
+1 on toasting your sticks even though the barrel had been toasted at some point. The staves I get definitely need a little more toast once they're cleaned up and cut to size.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by Twisted Brick »

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I use my hand grinder with a 5" concrete-cutting blade on my wine barrel staves. Does the job in less than 2 minutes. A quick rinse and the eventual filtering of charred bits out of the aged spirit take care of any sawdust.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by Demy »

NZChris wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 12:20 am I don't let detergent anywhere near anything that is in contact with my likker.
I should have specified better that I was speaking for the outside of the barrel and in any case I meant a suitable detergent such as sodium carbonate or caustic soda.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by ng71xy »

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Cheers for all ya help guys!!

I found the best tool to use was a flappy disk on a grinder, took about 5 mins to do a whole stave!!

Problem now is to split them the best size to fit in a 5L carboy, first few indone were a bit big :p haha
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by Deplorable »

I recommend sizing the small enough to accommodate smaller vessels as well. Like the neck of a 1 gallon cider jug.
I make all my sticks just over .5X .5X 6.0 inches I use one for a qt jar or 3 in a gallon jug. You can always add more sticks to larger vessels.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

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Deplorable wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 6:59 am I recommend sizing the small enough to accommodate smaller vessels as well. Like the neck of a 1 gallon cider jug.
I make all my sticks just over .5X .5X 6.0 inches I use one for a qt jar or 3 in a gallon jug. You can always add more sticks to larger vessels.
Yeah nah, I’m gonna leave the ones I’ve already done the size they are, and save them for bigger openings (no point sanding them down and wasting wood), and from now on I’ll make them the size I need them, based on the jar/container opening
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by ng71xy »

Ok I got one more question regarding all this (hopefully last one haha) is it worth while sanding smooth all the sides which look ‘grainy’ where I split the staves (one sanded one not in the pic)
I don’t imagine it would, as it’s not exposing any end grain…but with the word of knowledge at my fingers here, it wouldn’t hurt to ask…especially considering I haven’t seen it asked :)

Cheers again fellas!!
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

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Ive always just split them and left it at that.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 10:01 pm Ive always just split them and left it at that.
Good enough for me!!
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by CopperFiend »

Sanding them will reduce the surface area available for exchange. I'd leave them as is.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by SaltyStaves »

What the hell does surface area and end grain have to do with a completely saturated piece of wood laying on the bottom of a glass jar?
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by Tummydoc »

End grain not so much, but surface area has a lot to do with extraction of wood sugars and flavoring compounds. But i agree salty, sanding won't influence the surface area enough to warrant the effort.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by SaltyStaves »

Tummydoc wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:41 am End grain not so much, but surface area has a lot to do with extraction of wood sugars and flavoring compounds.
A piece of virgin oak and a piece that is heavily toasted can share the same surface area, but the weights will be significantly different.
Oak in a jar of distillate is saturated (unlike a barrel stave), its mass needs to be factored, because not just the outer surface is influencing the spirit.

Time and proof are the other factors that matter. End grain concern, is for those who want to make one week old oak tea.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

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Tummydoc wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:41 am End grain not so much, but surface area has a lot to do with extraction of wood sugars and flavoring compounds.
In a jar, one can just add more oak, like Salty Staves says, but perhaps the more surface area there is the faster the oak gives up its goodies. Kinda like an oak spiral. Maybe surface area is why this cooper went to the trouble of stepping the alternating staves in this barrel?
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by Tummydoc »

If you're just going toasted it may not matter. But if you are going for char to caramelize the sugars in the wood, I think more surface area makes a difference, not just mass.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

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SaltyStaves wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 11:30 pm What the hell does surface area and end grain have to do with a completely saturated piece of wood laying on the bottom of a glass jar?
Clearly Salty, you dont understand the process. It is unlikely to ever become fully saturated and much more extraction of wood based compounds is occurring at the surface or just beneath. Imagine the time it would take for a molecule of spirit to travel the entire distance through the piece of wood just by osmosis. This is not true for spirals obviously as they are virtually 100% surface with no interior.

End grain is of course relevant as the spirit will penetrate significantly further into the wood through the end grain, as there are ready-made xylem and phloem vessels waiting to carry spirit into the wood via capillary action. Therefore higher percentage of the wood as end grain will increase extraction efficiency. If all barrels were not made of quartersawn wood and were all end grain, all the spirit would leach out of the barrel very quickly.

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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by SaltyStaves »

Copper, don't conflate how a barrel and how a piece of sunk wood behaves. There is no magic cut that you can make to lumber that changes the fact that end grain is going to be in the spirit.

Weight, time and proof are more useful than surface area and end grain for the jar aging home distiller.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

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CopperFiend wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:40 pm End grain is of course relevant as the spirit will penetrate significantly further into the wood through the end grain, as there are ready-made xylem and phloem vessels waiting to carry spirit into the wood via capillary action. Therefore higher percentage of the wood as end grain will increase extraction efficiency
End grain is only relevant when you are making 'oak tea' to simulate aged liquor to fool your friends, (they won't all be fooled). Aging requires more than just steeping wood flavor into your new make.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by Saltbush Bill »

It doesn't have to be rocket science .....weight and surface area be damned, lotta kerfuffle bout nothin, use 1 stick 1/2 inch x 1/2 inch x 5-6 inches long, toasted or charred into 1 liter of spirit.
Taste often to see what you like , add or subtract sticks as you like. Ive used roughly that formula for years now regardless of if its home made oak sticks, Still Dragon Dominoes or some other form of Oak adjuct. Never yet thought anything was over oaked even after 12 -24 months or more.
Remember less for longer is better than to much to fast.
Deplorables quantities and sizes are roughly the same, either one will work,
Deplorable wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 6:59 am I recommend sizing the small enough to accommodate smaller vessels as well. Like the neck of a 1 gallon cider jug.
I make all my sticks just over .5X .5X 6.0 inches I use one for a qt jar or 3 in a gallon jug. You can always add more sticks to larger vessels.
To give you some idea what different oaks ,chars and toasts can do for flavour and colour here is a photo of 5 Rums , all from the same run all the same abv all oaked on the same day, but some with French some with American, some toasted , some home made sticks charred to different levels some SD Dominos.
This is them after a couple of weeks, due to the photo and reflections it looks like there is more wood than there really is.
5 rums 3 weeks.jpg
This is them at about 18 months.
5 rums 18 months..jpg
As you can see there has been some sampling and Ive cut the amount of wood back.
Those bottles are still the same to this day, 5 years later.....a small sip from time to time tells me that they are still doing just fine. Its turning into a fairly long term experiment.
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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by CopperFiend »

SaltyStaves wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:42 pm Copper, don't conflate how a barrel and how a piece of sunk wood behaves. There is no magic cut that you can make to lumber that changes the fact that end grain is going to be in the spirit.

Weight, time and proof are more useful than surface area and end grain for the jar aging home distiller.
Don't confuse 'end grain' and 'quarter sawn'. If you rip a piece of wood then there is clearly a 90 degree cut across the end grain when you cut that into sections. In a barrel that is properly made there are no clear paths for the spirit to travel through the wood as none of the vessels travel horizontally from the liquid surface to the outside.

I think you'll find that the differences between how a barrel stave and sunk wood behave are exactly what we are discussing.

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Re: Preparing old barrel staves

Post by CopperFiend »

NZChris wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:10 am
CopperFiend wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:40 pm End grain is of course relevant as the spirit will penetrate significantly further into the wood through the end grain, as there are ready-made xylem and phloem vessels waiting to carry spirit into the wood via capillary action. Therefore higher percentage of the wood as end grain will increase extraction efficiency
End grain is only relevant when you are making 'oak tea' to simulate aged liquor to fool your friends, (they won't all be fooled). Aging requires more than just steeping wood flavor into your new make.
Agreed, but aging is a totally different thing to extraction of oak molecules by spirit, which is what I am talking about. The aging is not done by the raw wood itself but the chemical reactions and evaporation occurring.

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