Oak taste woody/toasty

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
Virandell
Swill Maker
Posts: 317
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:04 am

Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Virandell »

Hi I made some staves from exactly the same oak like a year ago.
Oak from year ago had a very nice vanilla flavour with just a touch of toast flavour, This one just taste like wood and toast to me.
I wonder what I messed up, last year I think I toasted the oak in 392f this year its been 362f.
Is it possible that small diffrence in temperature change flavour so much ?
I wrapped the oak in two layers of foil and made holes at the top and kept it for 2h on middle rack in oven any suggetions what to do? Try make another batch with higher temperature?
User avatar
Demy
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3084
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Demy »

Remember that it is a natural material then the piece of oak you have recently used could be slightly different (even if from the same tree), another my thought (a conviction) is that different levels of humidity could cause different products. Even that minimum temperature difference could, but I believe that in a static oven there is still temperature error. For practicality I modified an old little oven by inserting a rotating basket and the result is very uniform, otherwise try to mix your wood often (perhaps enter it in a pot with a lid, the grill would do it fall) so as to have a uniform result .
Avalir
Swill Maker
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:26 am

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Avalir »

Sorry I'm late to the party. Just figured I'd toss out my 2 cents. I made a stockpile of various toasts not too long ago (will probably tweak temps and times in the future, but my stock will last and I've had good results). Naturally I was working with American white oak. I had it cut roughly 2"×1/2"×3/4". My medium toast I wrapped in foil and placed directly on the center rack with decent spacing between them in a conventional oven at 425F for 90 minutes. I imagine that probably gave a similar result to your 392 for 2 hours. I haven't had an issue with getting nice carmel, vanilla, and syrupy notes from it. The only time I can think of it being a little woody is during some tastings when it's not finished.
Granted, hot spots in the oven, as mentioned above, may possibly be the culprit.
And just so we can cross variables off, I'm guessing you likely had cut roughly same size as the first batch? Did you age about as long to in same or similar climate/temperature?

Edit: When I was playing with toasting, I also let my nose be my guide. Wrote in a journal what I did, what temperature, and what aromas appeared just outside the oven at what time intervals. Once it hit what I thought was a good and appropriate smell for the toast, I let it go a few more minutes to a non-oddball time interval before removing--just to appease myself and make educated guessing for tweaks in the future easier on myself.

I also imagine both cuts were heartwood? If one was heartwood and the other was sapwood, that would easily explain it.
"I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green
User avatar
Ben
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:13 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Ben »

This is floating around elsewhere but it should answer the temp sensitivity question:
World_Cooperage_Wood_Toast.jpg
:)
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I use the chart ben posted as a reference and toast oak fingers at different temp ranges - I might vary oven temp up/dn between 280-350 over a couple hours or 350-400) then keep them in zip lock bags with notes on time and temp toasted - So I do a couple batches of fingers at one time in different ranges - eg; attempting to capture sweet, vanila, toasty.. For a gallon I might put one of each for three fingers total... I save the used ones too and reuse them for hopefully a more subtle influence... I also make wine and keep my used wine oak to throw one or six into the aging jug... I find it hard to use just one thing like sweet..

If I get the table saw out and cut up a stave or two I'll have enough oak fingers to last me quite a while...

Char also seems to be pretty significant for outcome too if you also char some with a blowtorch or flame - i'll do that right before sticking it in the jug just because it's a bit neater for storage in the shed uncharred..

I've acquired a few wide mouth gallon jars so I can stick a larger chunk of wood in there instead of fingers.. Also been experimenting with filling the jug/jar 1/2 and cutting a piece to full height so it's only about 1/2 submerged and shake it up every once in a while...

my oak stave pile outside has accumulated from a few different barrel heads I've ordered off etsy plus my original 1/2 barrel planter that I busted up - stacked it all outside and it's been sitting for the last few years... Need to split up an apple wood trunk my buddy gave me and he's got some post oak logs he'll be gifting that i'll cut to size as well to broaden the spectrum a bit more.

I feel like aging proof also has an influence on extraction so that might be part of different results not ot mention the new-make spirit itself?

Cheers,
j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
Twisted Brick
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3770
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:54 pm
Location: Craigh Na Dun

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Twisted Brick »

Virandell wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:08 am
I wonder what I messed up, last year I think I toasted the oak in 392f this year its been 362f.
Is it possible that small diffrence in temperature change flavour so much ?
I wrapped the oak in two layers of foil and made holes at the top and kept it for 2h on middle rack in oven any suggetions what to do? Try make another batch with higher temperature?
You didn't mess up. There are many variables that go into wood aging, enough to fill books with. This Learning to Toast thread by Otis is pretty comprehensive.

Also, a light search should uncover additional threads with other members' approaches to toasting.
“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”

- W.C. Fields

My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer
Hellfire burner
Novice
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:14 am
Location: Unknown

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Hellfire burner »

Honestly I don't know what the big deal is with oak cuz hickory will give you a strong caramel note and it makes you want to go back for more and apple is fantastic for aging brandy each wood type will give you a character that makes your liquor stand out it's just finding what drink you will put your name on with your unique flavor mine I want a legendary flavor but I also want a bite to it don't want the people to think it's water
User avatar
Ben
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:13 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Ben »

It's been covered. Oak is used because its the traditional wood barrels are made of. Barrels are made of it because it can hold up to being wet for 20+ years, and because it was durable and readily available for the shipping industry. Due to this the liquor industry, cooperage and laws were built around oak. Not inconsequently it has a lot more tannin than any other wood safe for aging, walnut comes pretty close.

Use whatever wood you want. All the pitted fruit woods are pretty common on here, and many of the nut and smoking woods. Do whatever makes the drink you like, just be safe.
:)
Avalir
Swill Maker
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:26 am

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Avalir »

Ben wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:34 am Due to this the liquor industry, cooperage and laws were built around oak. Not inconsequently it has a lot more tannin than any other wood safe for aging, walnut comes pretty close.
I just wanted to throw it out there that walnut is toxic and should not be used for aging. Wasn't sure if you were just commenting on tannins, but figured I'd mention this to avoid possible confusion.
"I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green
User avatar
Ben
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:13 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Ben »

Avalir wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:48 am
Ben wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:34 am Due to this the liquor industry, cooperage and laws were built around oak. Not inconsequently it has a lot more tannin than any other wood safe for aging, walnut comes pretty close.
I just wanted to throw it out there that walnut is toxic and should not be used for aging. Wasn't sure if you were just commenting on tannins, but figured I'd mention this to avoid possible confusion.
Can you cite this at all? This thread seems to imply it is safe: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=58725

I have used it sparingly in meat smoking and never had an issue. Plates and bowls have been made with it for centuries. Would really like to know if its going to kill me.
:)
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Y'all go ahead and drink a few gallons of the walnut aged product and let's have a conversation lol... If it were good I think we'd see more of it in the commercial sector.. Anyone know of any product out there?

Cheers!
-j
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I tend to agree Jonny, The commercial Distilling folk are always keen to jump onto any marketing advantage that they can, If walnut worked well we would have been up to our eyeballs in Walnut aged spirit and walnut Barrels a few hundred years ago.
Same goes for other woods, if they worked well or do work that well why hasn't the industry been using then for years now?
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by The Baker »

I have no knowledge of poisonous or unsafe woods.

But we make a liqueur with unripe walnuts (nocino) ...

Geoff
The Baker
User avatar
contrahead
Trainee
Posts: 909
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:43 pm
Location: Southwest

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by contrahead »

People haven't aged liquor in walnut or many other types of wood, for the simple reason those other woods don't make good barrels. For thousands of years now oak has been the preferred wood for water tight barrels – because of its unusual cell structure. That's no good reason however to assume that liquor can't be beneficially aged somehow by exposure to another type of wood (without the barrel).

There are many, many poisonous plants. If just small amounts of a plant's inherent chemicals succeed in modifying the human condition then these chemicals are called psychoactine drugs or medicines; even when at larger dosages the same chemicals might kill. If the topic is restricted to just poisonous trees large enough to produce barrel staves, then that field will narrow some.

Consulting some old notes, I rediscover:

Although parts of the Pistachio tree and nut have been reported to cause skin irritation, there have been no direct reports on the toxicity or allergenicity of the actual wood. Wilted leaves and seeds of certain pistachio trees however have proven deadly to horses. Dogs are acutely sensitive to Aflatoxin levels found in certain pistachio orchards.

Juglone from Black Walnuts (Juglans nigra) and green Hickory nut husk also has been used to kill fish. Juglone is toxic to many insects and to nearby competitive plants. Other plants attempting to grow near to or under its canopy will wilt and die from juglone secreted from the Black Walnut tree's roots. This tannin is collected and used as a herbicide, or as a orange to brown coloring dye for hair, fabrics and food products.

The English longbows like Robin Hood was supposed to have used, were made from the very toxic Yew tree (Taxus baccata). The genus produce the alkaloid taxine, which is cardiotoxic and notorious for killing dogs, horses and people. For centuries people were afraid to even sleep under these shade trees.

The Australia-Corkwood Tree (Duboisia hopwoodii) seems to be a bush, and therefore does not belong here. Nonetheless the Aborigines allegedly poisoned their dinky little hunting arrows with the sap of this “Emu Plant”. The leaves of this Pituri or Pitchiri" plant contains hyoscyamine, nicotine, nornicotine and scopolamine.

Barringtonia asiatica (called the 'fish poison tree' throughout both the Indian and Pacific oceans) is probably the best known example of a saponin-piscicide. All parts of the tree are poisonous but the seeds or bark are crushed and used on fish. The fruit (sometimes called the "Box fruit") propagates itself the same way as the coconut. The Barringtonia fruit may fall into the sea and float around for years before landing on a beach and germinating.

Acacia trees are widespread and host a wide assortment of potent chemical compositions. Many of the approximately 1,300 species of acacias produce a wide variety of alkaloids - some psychoactive. Several acacia species produce hordenine, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT and NMT (N-Methyltryptamine) all at the same time.

Croton oil is an alkaloid from the Croton tiglium tree indigenous to India and Malaysia. Not only is croton oil a piscicide but it is a violent purgative (laxative) in humans. Used in some traditional Chinese medicines and liniments, croton oil was commonly sold in American pharmacies until about 40 years ago. In WWII most torpedoes carried in American ships and subs used ethanol alcohol as fuel; to which croton oil was added to dissuade sailors from drinking it.

Strychnine is a well known poison (a neurotoxin) but it is also a stimulant. Strychnine is a plant alkaloid found in the beans or seeds of many plants but the highest concentrations come from either the Strychnos ignatii or the Strychnos nux vomica tree.

The "Possumwood tree", "Javillo tree", "Dynamite tree", "Monkey No Climb tree" or 'Sandbox tree" (Hura crepitans) has been used by Caribbean and Amazonian Indians as a fish poison but is better known for the arrow or blow dart poison it produces. This tree can grow to be one of the largest in the Tropics. It has a smooth bark covered with many sharp and unfriendly spines on its trunk. Carib Indians (from which the Caribbean Sea gets its name) dipped their arrows in its sap. Sandbox tree sap is also included sometimes in the hallucinogenic drink Ayahuasca.

Another arrow poison popular with the occasionally cannibalistic Carib Indians, came from the "Manchineel tree" (Hippomane mancinella). The Spanish name for this tree (one of the most poisonous in the world) "manzanilla de la muerte" means - little apple of death. Not only did the Caribs kill local enemies and Spanish explorers alike with poisoned arrows, but they poisoned water supplies with the sap and tortured captives to a death of agony by tying them to the trunk of the Manchineel tree. A phorbol or diterpene named mancinellin was absorbed by and inflamed the skin before causing an eventual death. Smoke from the burning wood of the tree is said to cause blindness.

So, just to be safe, I wouldn't touch some of these trees, even with your finger. I certainly would not make a whisky barrel with their wood either.
Omnia mea mecum porto
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Saltbush Bill »

contrahead wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:42 pm The Australia-Corkwood Tree (Duboisia hopwoodii) seems to be a bush, and therefore does not belong here. Nonetheless the Aborigines allegedly poisoned their dinky little hunting arrows with the sap of this “Emu Plant”.
The Australasian Aborigine never invented or used an arrow ,or a bow to fire it for that matter, they only had spears and woomeras.... there was nothing "small or dinky" about those.
As for the Corkwood it can be shrubby , but can also grow to 14 meters or more, 45.93 foot.......hardly what i would call a bush.....
Hopefully the rest of the information is more accurate.
spear.jpg
spear 2.jpg
Sporacle
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1149
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:45 pm

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Sporacle »

:D Not to sure if I want to get hit with "dinky" long turtle spear, seriously bit of gear those things are
" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman
User avatar
jonnys_spirit
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:58 am
Location: The Milky Way

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by jonnys_spirit »

And in the US for instance - Bourbons and whiskies by definition must be aged in new/used oak barrels. Looking through this list I see a lot of oak called out and not much else specifically as far as wood goes. The law tends to be a huge influence - obviously not for us folk…

https://www.ttb.gov/images/pdfs/spirits ... apter4.pdf

Cheers,
J
————
i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
————
User avatar
contrahead
Trainee
Posts: 909
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:43 pm
Location: Southwest

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by contrahead »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:04 pm
The Australasian Aborigine never invented or used an arrow ,or a bow.....
Hopefully the rest of the information is more accurate.
By now in your life you should have learned to use the word “never”, very cautiously.

The Aborigines were culturally isolated and did not develope archery in the typical sense. That much is correct.

But I did read somewhere, that some at one time did use little weak bows to propel poisoned arrows; and that their little projectiles were dipped in "pituri". Perhaps my source was in error 10 or 12 years ago when I read it; but I will continue to search until I find the text again.

Wikipedia states that: Duboisia or corkwood may be a tree, but that the genus has four species, and that some species are just shrubs. Forgive my ignorance, I'm not from those parts.

In the last hour I have found one source that states: “The usage of the bow and arrow by the aboriginal people is still in debate”. And I've found two sources that state: “The Aborigines adopted the bow for a time and then disregarded it

And also in that last hour or so, I've been humored at the overall state of Australian archaeology; when I read about the disagreements and controversy over the “Bradshaw rock art” (in the Kimberly region). It seems some theorize that the San people from South Africa payed Australia a visit somewhere back in pre-history. (The San were famous for bringing down large game – like bull elephants - with dinky little bows and arrows poisoned with Diamphidia beetle juice).

Iconography in Bradshaw† rock art: breaking the circularity

One of Australian archaeology's most contentious topics

https://www.dark-emu-exposed.org/home/2 ... e89d-ksghh
Omnia mea mecum porto
User avatar
Saltbush Bill
Site Mod
Posts: 9675
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:13 am
Location: Northern NSW Australia

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Saltbush Bill »

contrahead wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 10:45 pm But I did read somewhere, that some at one time did use little weak bows to propel poisoned arrows;
Ive also read that the Earth is flat......"somewhere"....because I read it, and someone else wrote it doesn't mean its true.
This is someone else's thread about a completely different subject...I'm out.
Sporacle
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1149
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:45 pm

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Sporacle »

I won't say never, but having spent my youth in Western NSW, considerable time in the desert country in the NT, Cape York and Western Queensland I can't say that I have ever heard of a bow being used, a quick google shows some toy bows being found well after we arrived. The closest thing we have is a Woomera that is used to extend the distance a spear can be thrown. I will check it out further though
" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman
Avalir
Swill Maker
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:26 am

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Avalir »

Ben wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:27 pm
Avalir wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:48 am
Ben wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:34 am Due to this the liquor industry, cooperage and laws were built around oak. Not inconsequently it has a lot more tannin than any other wood safe for aging, walnut comes pretty close.
I just wanted to throw it out there that walnut is toxic and should not be used for aging. Wasn't sure if you were just commenting on tannins, but figured I'd mention this to avoid possible confusion.
Can you cite this at all? This thread seems to imply it is safe: https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=58725

I have used it sparingly in meat smoking and never had an issue. Plates and bowls have been made with it for centuries. Would really like to know if its going to kill me.
https://newswire.caes.uga.edu/story/362 ... -tree.html
Theres a quick link I pulled up. It's at least got a decent amount of information on the toxic compound you'll find in walnut--juglone. Now I will say, most humans tend to have a rather minor reaction to walnut per research I've done in the past (wasn'treadily locating articles that looked familiar). Most of my knowledge comes from the ag and horse community. Walnut is notorious for killing horses and is decently common knowledge among those communities. Granted, horses seems to have a very touchy immune system and low capacity to tolerate toxins.

Edit: Also looks like a couple people beat me to some info before I was able to see this and reply.
"I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green
Avalir
Swill Maker
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:26 am

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Avalir »

Also, I may have been thinking of specifically black walnut. So maybe I shouldn't speak on normal walnut as my knowledge is centered around black walnut and I can't speak on the other as to if the same facts apply. But do your research and don't think black walnut can be used if you do find other walnut to be safe.
"I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green
User avatar
Ben
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:13 am
Location: Colorado

Re: Oak taste woody/toasty

Post by Ben »

Careful everybody, chocolate is toxic to dogs, don't age on cacao nibs!

Yes, juglone is toxic to horses and fish and plants. Its also used as a food dye for human consumption (natural dye 7). So no It doesn't seem to be toxic to humans. Also denatures in the presence oxygen, like whiskey aging?

From https://www.warnell.uga.edu/sites/defau ... 0Coder.pdf :

"Juglone is found in only minute amounts within walnut tissues because of its toxicity. Juglone
exists within a tree in a non-toxic form called hydrojuglone. Juglone is held in its reduced forms,
principally ( alpha-hydrojuglone = 1,4,5-trihydroxynaphthalene), and in a bound state with glucose
inside living tree cells. Hydrojuglone is colorless and generally nontoxic, but is immediately converted
to juglone by oxidation. Upon continual contact with oxidative conditions, or tissue drying, juglone is
tied up and decomposed"

If you read that scholarly article all the way down to the bottom you will see this chart that talks about what contains Jugalone. Walnuts and Pecans, I guess everyone better avoid the pecan pie at Thanksgiving and the roasted walnuts and sawdust cookies at Christmas, cuz the Jugalone gonna get ya!

This article: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/51da/b ... 35047a.pdf Implies jugalone denatures quickly at 95c, so if you are toasting your aging wood your going to kill it there too.

Is it going to make a good spirit? Well, it's awfully harsh. I will continue using oak and pitted fruit woods.
:)
Post Reply