What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

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Ben
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What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by Ben »

Bear with me a moment.

I was working on a keezer collar earlier today. The wood I used was some I reclaimed from a barn on my families land in Moab. For anyone who isn't familiar with the location it's a high altitude desert (≈4000 ft). Temps in the summer exceed 110° regularly, winter temps are cold, its very dry. Occasional rain and snow.

The species is southern yellow pine. It has been out in the elements for around 70 years. I didn't expect much aroma when I started to process it, maybe faint pine. That isn't all I found; sure it had a little pine aroma, but it had many of the same aroma's I associate with very old whiskey, some of the earthy, musky, subdued tones, the very rounded slight vanilla, they are a bit hard to describe but I think if you are familiar with old whiskey/y you will know what I am talking about. I find it present in Auchentoshan 12, Highland park 12, Glenlivet 14 (cognac cask finish) and to a lesser extent in Laphroaig select (could be because its 4 whiskys and only one is older than 10 years). The specific smells are completely absent in George Dickel sour mash, Michters rye, Teeling small batch and Old Forester blue label.

The wood in question:
1116211626.jpg

I can't say any of this for sure. I am an experienced sawyer/woodworker however and I tell you wood can change pretty dramatically. When cutting elm it smells horrible, but give it a year to season off, or some time in a kiln and it becomes almost totally neutral, many woods are like this. Most of what I work is kiln dried and stable, this is the first time I have cut very old, very outdoor lumber. So what if the tastes we associate with very old whiskey are really the taste of the oak finally starting to degrade, maybe the lignin, or the very fiber?

What say you hive mind? This would explain part of why rapid aging doesn't taste like extended aging. It would explain why there are such differences in small barrel vs large cask aging over long periods. The effect of oxidization and impartment of wood flavor may be similar but there is "something" missing.

And of course, could we simulate it? As and example: Red oak is quite similar to white but weathers and rots quite quickly in comparison to white.
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

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The breakdown of the lignins is known to be an important part of long aging. It's why, yesterday, I put the wood from an emptied jar of my 2015 brandy into a jar of 2018. I do the same when I empty a jar of any of my flavored products.
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Ben
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by Ben »

So are we looking for a spectrum, or could someone find an old, compromised piece of oak from something, tear it down and use it for their aging stock to get that same "old oak" flavor? Or for that matter, not oak. Peach degrades very quickly, toast some up and let it have sun and rain.
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

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06C1C10F-3E22-46AE-9833-978CA9167B59.jpeg
Left is four used bourbon fingers. Right is two toasted. One month in. Not sure if this really means anything about how the oak breaks down but it’s the start of an eight 1/2 filled gallon jug series of solera style spirit runs where i’ll be using different oaks with different toast/char qualities. It’ll take a minute to get this up to eight but expecting approximately two months between each batch of two and probably more used than newly toasted/charred for this experiment.

Using different sources of woods and treatments I’m hoping to get a better grasp on the range of contributions as I draw off a decanter here and there and the solera blends down - of course testing each jug along its journey towards the belly.
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by The Baker »

Ben wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:50 pm So are we looking for a spectrum, or could someone find an old, compromised piece of oak from something, tear it down and use it for their aging stock to get that same "old oak" flavor? Or for that matter, not oak. Peach degrades very quickly, toast some up and let it have sun and rain.
Thanks, Ben.
Exactly what I was wondering.

I got a very old staff from a very large barrel.
Thinking of using it in a badmotivator barrel knock-off with coffee jars...

Had been in the weather for years and I thought maybe it was too old and the good stuff might have leached out.
Though there is colour still in the inside of the oak when you cut it.

But maybe the age of it may be a real benefit???

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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by NZChris »

I suspect that some of the breakdown products you are looking for require contact with the spirit.

UV does break down wood, but it doesn't penetrate very far.

If you have something you think is worth experimenting with, chuck it in a jar with some new make and nuke it.

I'm chewing on a grey slice off an oak slab that has been out in the weather for four years and I'm not tasting anything to get excited about.
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by Ben »

NZChris wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:19 pm I'm chewing on a grey slice off an oak slab that has been out in the weather for four years and I'm not tasting anything to get excited about.
Based on where these flavors seem to come in I wouldn't expect you to. Teeling is a minimum of 3 years and 1 day old and it has none of it. I think it needs to be older.
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by Ben »

I have been trying to come up with a way to test this. The best I can do for now. This seasoned, air dried peach wood. I cut it with a hand plane, ≈45° to the grain to get the thinnest materials I possibly could.
1204211344a.jpg
I added 1.000 gram of it to 100.0 ML of sweet feed whiskey at 63%.
1204211342.jpg

I will set aside another 100 mils as a control.

Peach is rated as very perishable. I am hoping that the mechanical action of severing all those little fibers, and the ridiculously high surface area per mass (this is several hundred square inches) will cause the wood to break down very quickly. The color change started instantaneously.

I will test it in a month and see where it is.
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by higgins »

Ben wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:57 pm I will test it in a month and see where it is.
So Ben, what is the verdict?
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by Ben »

Oh! This thing has been sitting in a dark place doing its thing. After the first day it pretty well stopped changing color any further. After I checked it coming back from Mexico it had turned... syrupy. Like tangibly, coat the back of the spoon thick. Then I got covid and forgot about it. I will do a taste, smell etc on it and report back!
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by Ben »

Alright, few notes. One: I am not getting the old wood thing, at least not yet. I wonder if its due to the lack of oxygen in contact, or lack of bacteria/molds. Ah well, it can sit for another 2 months. Hopefully I can remember to let it breathe periodically. I intentionally put it somewhere out of the way so I wouldn't mess with it.

Smell and taste: Still smells and tastes like young whiskey, I expected the wood to be excessive, but it was not... not at all. In fact it could certainly use more time. Compared to the white whiskey it came from it has a whole lot more cocoa and dark fruit coming out (Base spirit has chocolate wheat added to the recipe).

More to come later. I am still looking for some very old wood that isn't pine. I do have a line on some barrels from older whisky, still waiting on details.
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Re: What if it isn't the age of the whiskey/y

Post by Single Malt Yinzer »

Wood for aging is best conditioned by UV, heat and mold. Those three factors start breaking down the various substances in the wood. Barrel manufacturer's best barrels are air dried in the sun for 1-3 years. In that time mold and UV start the breakdown process. Rain removes some of the tannins and other water soluble compounds. Then the manufacturer uses heat to toast/char the barrel breaking down the wood even more.

For research:
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Maturation
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Wood_aging
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Barrel
https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/index.ph ... _for_aging

One of the best podcasts about aging: https://www.boozewerks.com/2019/05/10-barrel-aging/
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