Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

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EricTheRed
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Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by EricTheRed »

So i tested a batch of whiskey that has been ageing just over 2 months last night.
Nice colour.
Tasted okish - but the chocolate caramel smell and taste was a bit overpowering. Smooth as anything, but ...

Aged in 4 L glass jar, filled to 3.5 L @ 60% ABV - with 3 x oak staves of 150 x 20 x 30mm - toasted at 220°C for 3 hours, then medium charred, rinsed with water before dropping into jars. Cheesecloth over the top, lid on loosely so i can breath. Room temperature fluctuates between 20° and 30° C almost daily

When i tasted this at 1 month, it was very smooth and the Chocolate caramel flavour was not yet present.

Too much oak?
Too much char?
Too much toasting?
Too long on oak?
Will the flavour mellow out and that Chocolate Caramel flavour go away?
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by NZChris »

Perhaps you should be asking the person who gave you the idea to do that?

It might have something to do with too little time and/or too much oxygen.
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by Sporacle »

Mate, in my very limited experience the flavour profile will swing from week to week. I know because I have a small jar of bourbon that I have aging in my pantry for this very purpose, I have maybe half a nip every week just because I like to do it and to be honest the spirit changes each time. It's getting close to 12 months now and the flavour is starting to settle. As for the amount of oak, I use a domino per litre so I think I oak a bit less than you. Maybe just give it some more time, that's the hard bit :thumbup:
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by EricTheRed »

NZChris
Perhaps you should be asking the person who gave you the idea to do that?
hmmm - this forum - so that's why i'm asking :)

There is so much contradictory info on ageing on wood, it's hard to pick one - or which is the right one

That jar is 1 of 3 - the other two have different char - 1 has NO char, the other a light char
a month ago they were definitely hotter to taste
will sample one of them tonight and the other tomorrow night
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by EricTheRed »

Maybe just give it some more time, that's the hard bit
i know :(

Plan is to leave it for 6 months + as mentioned repeatedly here
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by Scott Tracy »

I realise these comparisons are almost worthless, but whatever - here's a data point for you to weigh as you choose.

I'm doing 10l SS barrels, with 8 white oak wood staves per barrel of similar dimensions to yours. My toast is 2 hours at 200c, well charred. First barrel just wood. Second barrel I pre-soaked the staves for 2 weeks in 50% AG heads/50% sherry.

Each barrel has whisky made from multiple runs of the same grain bill, mashed, fermented and distilled the same for each barrel (so it's a blend of 4-5 runs of the same recipe and process). It probably isn't relevant to the oak issue, but I'm using a 4" reflux rig with 4 bubble plates, single distillation runs.

Also about 2 months in. I keep my barrels sealed but open them regularly to vent (given SS barrels don't othewise breathe).

I found that the colour came in quickly, maybe 2 weeks. So did the tannins - enough to worry me in barrel 1 that i might have made a woodpile after a few weeks. The second barrel (pre-soaked one) was slower to colour (went pink then brown over a few weeks) and didn't get so 'woody'. But they both now seem to have stabilised and calmed down. I'm with you in thinking a 6 month check in is reasonable - hopefully I get a decent read on quality then.

Working on barrel 3 now. It's a leap of faith given i don't yet have a read on the first 2. Happily, I realised I can re-distill all grain feints into neutral (by stacking my still to 6 plates with 500ml packing on top). Makes a nice vodka, encourages me to tighter cuts for the whisky and helps keep me away from sampling the kegs that I'm trying to leave alone to age.
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by EricTheRed »

The colour on all 3 came in varying stages, directly proportional to the amount of char
i've done other jars (same amount etc) - and it did not come in with that heavy chocolate flavour
I'll leave it as long as i can and see what happens
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by Ben »

EricTheRed wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:17 am
There is so much contradictory info on ageing on wood, it's hard to pick one - or which is the right one
I think this is because every single experience is different, people take off at different times, put different things in their barrels, make different cuts, are in different environments, age at different proofs, wear different underpants.

I have 2, 2 liter barrels, sourced from the same company at the same time. Same spirit in each, sitting on the same shelf, at the same proof. Tastes different, evaporation rate between them is different, color is different. The root flavor is very similar to what is in the 10 liter barrel though, that's the part the distiller controls.

We are dealing with wood, which pretty much does whatever the fuck it wants. And humans, whom also do whatever the fuck they want, and make lots of errors. Let's not forget the variations in grain, ferment conditions, yeast from generation to generation. To me, that is the magic in the hobby. I don't mind if something turns out crap occasionally, I have a still and it always needs fed. When something turns out so good it puts you in a different place just by taking a sip, then all the work and sacrifice is worth it.

That is why there is blending. Save that chocolate goodness, you might need it as a blender down the road! And I hope you have good notes, cuz you are going to want some more one day :)
:)
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I'd like to know how you got the chocolate caramel flavor if you can summarize step by step pleeeease and thank you!?

Cheers,
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by HDNB »

you hit what i call the awkward stage of aging. between 5 weeks ans 5 months is no man's land. yer smack in the middle of that.
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by Deplorable »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:36 pm I'd like to know how you got the chocolate caramel flavor if you can summarize step by step pleeeease and thank you!?

Cheers,
j
+1
That sounds delicious. Pray it hangs around and gets better.
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by EricTheRed »

I'd like to know how you got the chocolate caramel flavor if you can summarize step by step pleeeease and thank you!?
Sure - here is the full blow by blow

Recipe --> full recipe and process here -> viewtopic.php?f=11&t=85670
I like this one - it ferments very quick, smells wonderful (taste too)

Distilling process and kit
* 30 Litre boiler on propane
* 90 cm x 3" riser packed (tightly) for 60cm
* 2" x 60cm shotgun condenser

Stripping run - takeoff rate about 2 - 2.5 L per hour - ran it until last 100ml was at 5%
(no parrot - I test each jar when it is full)
The net ABV of low wines 33 - 34%

Spirit Run
same config, but much slower - takeoff rate < 1 litre per hour - into 500 ml jars
1st jar at 85% down to last jar at 20%

Blending
aired for 48 hours
took everything from 3rd jar to 3rd last jar - after mixing was at around 65% - added a little water to bring it down to 60%
Fairly wide cuts - but very pleasant smelling and tasting even as a white dog when blended

Wood & ageing (for the choco caramel)
New, kiln dried oak - furniture grade - ie: nice with no knots etc.
(raw oak as like chicken teeth here, and if you can find, costs a fortune)
Aged in 4 L glass jar, filled to 3.5 L @ 60% ABV - with 3 x oak staves of 150 x 20 x 30mm -
toasted at 220°C for 3 hours then
medium charred, rinsed with water before dropping into jars.
(the other two jars have light char and no char - still working on those)
Cheesecloth over the top, lid on loosely so i can breath. Room temperature fluctuates between 20° and 30° C almost daily
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by EricTheRed »

That sounds delicious. Pray it hangs around and gets better.
you hit what i call the awkward stage of aging. between 5 weeks ans 5 months is no man's land. yer smack in the middle of that.
:)

And there in just two comments is the example of how varying the forum is on this subject :D

Gave some to a neighbour last night - he loved it
Let SWAMBO have a taste - she hated it
Myself - it's drinkable, but the flavour is a bit too much for my palette

So, each to their own - that's the beauty of this hobby! :D :D :D
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by Deplorable »

It'll tame down in the coming months. You'll see.
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Sounds wonderful! I like the malt & oats plus specialty malt to bump it. If the caramel is too much you could do the same batch again without it and blend to bump the specialty down closer to 5% or just age separately and blend some up for a drink in different ratios to see what you like best as it ages and for ratio reference on next batch all in. Might be a fun experiment.

Thanks for the detail too!

Cheers,
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by desert_distiller »

EricTheRed wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:17 am NZChris
Perhaps you should be asking the person who gave you the idea to do that?
hmmm - this forum - so that's why i'm asking :)

There is so much contradictory info on ageing on wood, it's hard to pick one - or which is the right one

(sic)
Unfortunately there is no right answer because everyone's tastes differ, everyone's standards differ, everyone's mash differs, everyone's distilling differs and everyone's oaking differs.

From my wee bit of experience I have found less oak and more time is better and many batches with slight changes on your techniques is the only way to find out what you can make and what you like that you have made.

If you are picky like I am, you will likely find short of an all grain mash and aging in an oak barrel isn't going to get you something you'll really like. I've found four months is the minimum before I start to enjoy what I've produced, but the flavor is still on the mild side. I've got five months to go to see what 1 year on charred oak sticks will do to a UJSSM variant (I use a mix of grains).

Keep at it until you find something you enjoy. Don't expect to be able to match a commercial whisky unless you follow their recipe and techniques to a T, and even then you'll only be hopefully in the ballpark.
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by EricTheRed »

DD
Yup agree with you 100%

currently, it is over 3 months and the choco-caramel taste is subsiding. On the right path!

ta
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Re: Oak ageing - chocolate caramel flavour?

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

I agree with everyone’s comments.

I’ve also had vastly different flavors from the same new make and same oak in separate jars. Boggles the mind how they can be so different, but it’s also kind of an exciting part of the hobby!

I have a recently bottled batch of Carolina Bourbon in 3 separate jars, one had a sweet caramel flavor, the other was a fruit bomb, the last had a nice a cinnamon spice flavor. All of them on their own were just fine, but I ended up blending them into one batch and wow, hugely complex sprit with flavors I’ve never tasted in a commercial bottle! Like others have said, this intensely flavored stuff you have might be the secret ingredient in a future blend.

I’ve now become very interested in blending and purposely aging my stuff in separate quart jars with different wood toasting and charring treatments. Having a large array of different flavors on the shelf from the same new make will give me the ability to make blends that are super tasty and I can control precisely with careful measurements. I currently have 4 quarts of CROW bourbon with different wood treatments in each jar and you’d never know they were from the same new make. Pretty cool!
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