Smaller barrel aging
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Smaller barrel aging
I picked up some 3) 15 and 2) 30 gallon used barrels, my buddy and I have been filling them over the last year, but still haven't gotten to the 30s, probably won't embark upon those until November.
I have some questions as I'm hoping to get input regarding flavor profile and suggestions for storage. Caveat: We likely drink too much but let's not address my awful habits given the size of the barrels; I want to create something authentic and to me, sticks don't cut it.
Sticks presented the exact same flavor profile for my brandies, rums, bourbon, sweetfeeds, and amalgamations after 4 years. We have a 15 filled with rum, 6 months old, that is incredible at cask strength but completely falls apart at 90 proof. The butter and coconut presents subtly but so incredible because we add them both into the boiler. Been sitting out in the sun and we decided to leave it out. Should I pull it back inside in the air controlled garage or leave it to cycle through the 90° days and 50° nights? Technically these are still small barrels but they are once used for bourbon. I want this to be dynamic at 90 proof but I assume it needs at least 2 years, but worry at that size it will be too oak heavy without the necessary time to interact properly with the wood and create complexity. This is also why I want to fill barrels, because it's so neat to learn how they change the spirit with time.
I'm trying to create heirloom spirits that will still be around when my kids grow up. Maybe some can identify with that, I dunno. My grandpa used to make wine and drink it within 2 weeks after it was fermented. He had no foresight and that always bothered me. In a sense, I can provide a legacy for my children to share after I'm gone, knowing how hard it was to create these wonderful spirits they will imbibe, telling lies about me being a decent human... Or maybe cursing my name? Anyway..
So that's the backstory to why I'm filling barrels, and I wanted to mention it because I'm anticipating flack due to the volumes. So be it.
We have a 15 just filled with a wide cut, grungy, 4 grain bourbon recipe. It was half filled out in the Colorado sun for two months and finally topped off. It seemed to be over oaked at that point but once it's been topped off, subdued and I decided to bring it in the garage where it's a consistent 73-75°F.
So here's what I'm wondering, if we keep the barrels in that range without much temperature fluctuation, will that remedy the smaller size to allow more time with wood to interact and create more of a genuine bourbon profile, even though it's used? I noticed with my previous bourbon recipe on sticks that after 2 years, then 6 months in a 15, that it finally tasting like traditional bourbon.
Technically, it won't be a bourbon, but 3 years in a 15 without much temperature fluctuation, would that effectively end up with a bourbon profile or more of an American whiskey?
I have some questions as I'm hoping to get input regarding flavor profile and suggestions for storage. Caveat: We likely drink too much but let's not address my awful habits given the size of the barrels; I want to create something authentic and to me, sticks don't cut it.
Sticks presented the exact same flavor profile for my brandies, rums, bourbon, sweetfeeds, and amalgamations after 4 years. We have a 15 filled with rum, 6 months old, that is incredible at cask strength but completely falls apart at 90 proof. The butter and coconut presents subtly but so incredible because we add them both into the boiler. Been sitting out in the sun and we decided to leave it out. Should I pull it back inside in the air controlled garage or leave it to cycle through the 90° days and 50° nights? Technically these are still small barrels but they are once used for bourbon. I want this to be dynamic at 90 proof but I assume it needs at least 2 years, but worry at that size it will be too oak heavy without the necessary time to interact properly with the wood and create complexity. This is also why I want to fill barrels, because it's so neat to learn how they change the spirit with time.
I'm trying to create heirloom spirits that will still be around when my kids grow up. Maybe some can identify with that, I dunno. My grandpa used to make wine and drink it within 2 weeks after it was fermented. He had no foresight and that always bothered me. In a sense, I can provide a legacy for my children to share after I'm gone, knowing how hard it was to create these wonderful spirits they will imbibe, telling lies about me being a decent human... Or maybe cursing my name? Anyway..
So that's the backstory to why I'm filling barrels, and I wanted to mention it because I'm anticipating flack due to the volumes. So be it.
We have a 15 just filled with a wide cut, grungy, 4 grain bourbon recipe. It was half filled out in the Colorado sun for two months and finally topped off. It seemed to be over oaked at that point but once it's been topped off, subdued and I decided to bring it in the garage where it's a consistent 73-75°F.
So here's what I'm wondering, if we keep the barrels in that range without much temperature fluctuation, will that remedy the smaller size to allow more time with wood to interact and create more of a genuine bourbon profile, even though it's used? I noticed with my previous bourbon recipe on sticks that after 2 years, then 6 months in a 15, that it finally tasting like traditional bourbon.
Technically, it won't be a bourbon, but 3 years in a 15 without much temperature fluctuation, would that effectively end up with a bourbon profile or more of an American whiskey?
Re: Smaller barrel aging
Michter's American Whiskey is a bourbon mash aged on used oak, its fantastic. I wouldn't worry about the second use thing. Make the thing you want to drink, don't worry about the title; you don't have to market and sell the stuff, only enjoy it.
Barrels in warehouses don't see huge temp swings. The barrel volume (thermal mass) surrounded by a lot of other thermally massive things helps keep temps regulated. Heaven hills large rickhouse house holds close to a half million barrels, air temps swing 5-10° in a day, 40° throughout the year. Many barrel houses in Scotland are heavy stone and stay extremely consistent day to day, with only seasonal swings in temp.
We are similar location, I keep my barrels (3 and 5 gallon) inside the house, and still see oak come up faster than I would like. If you are really after long term aging put them in the coolest place you have available. Any data on what your evaporation rate on that sunshine barrel was like?
I have to think if there was a distinct advantage to big temp swings in whiskey the major producers would be finding ways to exploit it, keeping barrels in greenhouses perhaps. The Texans look for ways to slow their oaking down, most can't get past 3 years due to the climate swings and the drop still ends up dark as night.
There are a lot of heirloom crafts out there, not sure about distilling.
Barrels in warehouses don't see huge temp swings. The barrel volume (thermal mass) surrounded by a lot of other thermally massive things helps keep temps regulated. Heaven hills large rickhouse house holds close to a half million barrels, air temps swing 5-10° in a day, 40° throughout the year. Many barrel houses in Scotland are heavy stone and stay extremely consistent day to day, with only seasonal swings in temp.
We are similar location, I keep my barrels (3 and 5 gallon) inside the house, and still see oak come up faster than I would like. If you are really after long term aging put them in the coolest place you have available. Any data on what your evaporation rate on that sunshine barrel was like?
I have to think if there was a distinct advantage to big temp swings in whiskey the major producers would be finding ways to exploit it, keeping barrels in greenhouses perhaps. The Texans look for ways to slow their oaking down, most can't get past 3 years due to the climate swings and the drop still ends up dark as night.
There are a lot of heirloom crafts out there, not sure about distilling.
:)
Re: Smaller barrel aging
Whiskeys become of age faster in a smaller barrel. (obvious) They also age faster in a new barrel than used ones that have had some of the "goodie" used out of it. Temperature swings will hurry the process. (take Texas for example) The opposite end of that thought, take Scotches and Irish as an example. Their rickhouses and storage buildings are mostly stone, the temps are fairly stable and cool, and they use used barrels. Most of their spirits take 8-15 years to mature to the point where they are really delicious. Most American bourbon comes from the south east US, is matured in multi floor wood rickhouses that have daily and seasonal temp swings. They are also matured in new oak barrels and not in used ones unless they are finished to add another flavor. 4 years is ok. 6-8 is usually good and often 8 years or more they get too over oaked and astringent. There are exceptions there. I agree with Ben, for long term storage I would keep them in your garage or basement where it is cool and even temperatures. You don't want to work so hard filling a 30 gallon barrel to lose most of it to the angels, or over oak it in a short time because it sets out in the sun too long. Keep testing it and when it get's good, bottle it or keep it in a carboy to stop the aging.
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
Thanks fellas. We're going to keep them in the garage at 73- 75°F.
Hard to call the rum as buddy already killed two friggin gallons of it himself. I told him I was coming too rescue three rum barrel.
The reason I want to keep things as close to traditional nomenclature and by the standards is for my own ego when sharing with friends and family, to but I agree with "making what you like"
If these turn out like I hope, I'll gladly share small samples with folks to get feedback. I'm interested in how all of us have different sensory responses and appreciations
Hard to call the rum as buddy already killed two friggin gallons of it himself. I told him I was coming too rescue three rum barrel.
The reason I want to keep things as close to traditional nomenclature and by the standards is for my own ego when sharing with friends and family, to but I agree with "making what you like"
If these turn out like I hope, I'll gladly share small samples with folks to get feedback. I'm interested in how all of us have different sensory responses and appreciations
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
Oh and the angels is very big here, which is why Leopolds ages on dirt. Once we make the move to my property down south in the high desert I'm going to dig a Root cellar and they will all be stored in there subterranean, with humidity regulations if possible
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
I hear ya. 15mo into a once-used 5gal bourbon barrel, my rye bourbon (put away dirty) rested the first year on the patio, protected from the sun but subject to SoCal 85-105F summer temperatures. I've since moved it into the garage, but I'd say (along with a monthly tester or two) I've lost 20-25% of the barrel and the ABV has increased to 65%. It's gotten damn tasty tho.
I think the complexity you're looking for actually comes from your newmake (grain bill/yeast/ferment combo) more than the barrel. I agree, the learning curve from tasting once-a-month is the best part.
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
Well what's a bummer is just how much effort it takes to fill these barrels on this scale. The errors won't be known for years. Many folks detest MGP on this site, and I understand, but that commercial profile offers complexity that narrow cuts just don't provide.
We took one legitimate edge jar from each side, and half the next, and a 1/4 of the next when making cuts. That is now my standard cut process for certain recipes
We took one legitimate edge jar from each side, and half the next, and a 1/4 of the next when making cuts. That is now my standard cut process for certain recipes
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
The good thing that it takes some time and effort is that - you can - take your time and test - subsequent runs to fill the barrel cut wider or more narrow as needed.
Cheers!
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Cheers!
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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i prefer my mash shaken, not stirred
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
This seems ideal.RockinRockies wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:18 pm I'm going to dig a Root cellar and they will all be stored in there subterranean, with humidity regulations if possible
:)
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
Cool. I'm glad my research is on the right track. Hopefully I can get that finished by January. I'll be digging out the hillside this weekendBen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:40 amThis seems ideal.RockinRockies wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:18 pm I'm going to dig a Root cellar and they will all be stored in there subterranean, with humidity regulations if possible
Re: Smaller barrel aging
Don’t bury yourself RR
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
Haha! I'm running the skid to flatten a spot for my well and then going to excavate the root cellar. I have some significant grading in spots that is mostly decomposed granite and sand. Hopefully the spot I have picked out doesn't have a large boulder in it.
What percentage humidity is preferred? Above 50%? Our grain storage is holding at 38°F but stuck at 75% humidity. Not sure how that's going to get rectified
Re: Smaller barrel aging
Haha! I'm running the skid to flatten a spot for my well and then going to excavate the root cellar. I have some significant grading in spots that is mostly decomposed granite and sand. Hopefully the spot I have picked out doesn't have a large boulder in it.
What percentage humidity is preferred? Above 50%? Our grain storage is holding at 38°F but stuck at 75% humidity. Not sure how that's going to get rectified
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Probably more temp swings than humidity. Remember Bourbon country in the US is fairly humid. Lexington Kentucky average humidity is upper 70% - low 80%
What percentage humidity is preferred? Above 50%? Our grain storage is holding at 38°F but stuck at 75% humidity. Not sure how that's going to get rectified
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Probably more temp swings than humidity. Remember Bourbon country in the US is fairly humid. Lexington Kentucky average humidity is upper 70% - low 80%
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
By using plastic sheeting, french drains, and a little forethought, you can get the humidity down somewhat (although I think you'll fight to get it lower than the external humidity without doing some clever temperature transitions!). You can certainly avoid it getting higher due to water in the surrounding soil.
I've had the idea of building a similar cold store for many years now. Just never seem to have the money and the time. Too many other projects take precedent.
I've had the idea of building a similar cold store for many years now. Just never seem to have the money and the time. Too many other projects take precedent.
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
What size excavation are you looking at?RockinRockies wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:18 amHaha! I'm running the skid to flatten a spot for my well and then going to excavate the root cellar. I have some significant grading in spots that is mostly decomposed granite and sand. Hopefully the spot I have picked out doesn't have a large boulder in it.
What percentage humidity is preferred? Above 50%? Our grain storage is holding at 38°F but stuck at 75% humidity. Not sure how that's going to get rectified
By the way I like your signature
Re: Smaller barrel aging
It seems like there is a relationship between what evaporates from the barrel and humidity. In drier climates the ABV usually stays about the same, in a wet climate the ABV will drop over time (ethanol is hydrophilic so it makes sense). Here's an article that discusses it briefly: https://www.shakestir.com/features/id/5 ... nd%20aroma.
I wouldn't sweat storing/aging white oak barrels in that climate. Look at some of the seaside distilleries in Scotland, as well as the domestics mentioned above. Stack them on something to ensure they have an air gap to the earth.
I wouldn't sweat storing/aging white oak barrels in that climate. Look at some of the seaside distilleries in Scotland, as well as the domestics mentioned above. Stack them on something to ensure they have an air gap to the earth.
:)
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
Thanks, I'll look into thatBen wrote: ↑Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:24 am It seems like there is a relationship between what evaporates from the barrel and humidity. In drier climates the ABV usually stays about the same, in a wet climate the ABV will drop over time (ethanol is hydrophilic so it makes sense). Here's an article that discusses it briefly: https://www.shakestir.com/features/id/5 ... nd%20aroma.
I wouldn't sweat storing/aging white oak barrels in that climate. Look at some of the seaside distilleries in Scotland, as well as the domestics mentioned above. Stack them on something to ensure they have an air gap to the earth.
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Re: Smaller barrel aging
I mainly use ten gal barrels and have found three years a really nice sweet spot. YMMV
Check out the link to the thesis in this link it has some pretty good and interesting information.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=80899
I have been wanting to build a rickhouse in my backyard to allow the barrels to get a better temp and humidity swing. Chicagoland gets hot humid or freezing and dry.
I once aged a ten gal barrel of bourbon in my steam room which gets up to about 105 F for about a half hour a day. Can’t really tell you if it changed anything but it was a great bourbon in about 1 year
Check out the link to the thesis in this link it has some pretty good and interesting information.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=80899
I have been wanting to build a rickhouse in my backyard to allow the barrels to get a better temp and humidity swing. Chicagoland gets hot humid or freezing and dry.
I once aged a ten gal barrel of bourbon in my steam room which gets up to about 105 F for about a half hour a day. Can’t really tell you if it changed anything but it was a great bourbon in about 1 year
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Cranky"s spoon feeding for new and novice distillers
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975
Cranky"s spoon feeding for new and novice distillers
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975