Well… think it’s over oaked

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BrewinBrian44
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Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Hey guys,

Long story short, I had some honey bear bourbon in a new 5 gallon Gibbs that I filled to the brim at 62.5% at the start of aging. I didn’t time my refill correctly, so I left it in the barrel for about 1 year and 5 months.

At a year, it was just right, but I didn’t have white spirit ready to replenish the barrel, so I’ve been building up stock in the meantime and pulled off about a half gallon for drinking. I’m finally ready for the refill after tomorrows spirit run, so I went ahead and emptied the barrel into a 5gal glass carboy and have about 3.5 gallons.

The flavor is intense. There’s a lot of tasty stuff going on, but the oak is pretty prominent and the sweetness has become slightly bitter with some tannin present. From everything I’ve read, these are the tell tale signs of over oaked bourbon. This is the first time I’ve over oaked anything, so I’m curious how I should handle the final product.

Okay you experiences folks, I feel like I have some options. My first thought is building up some additional white spirit to add to the mix to dilute some of the flavor over time, leaving headspace and allowing longer aging time.

My other thought is to use this for blending into other spirits.

My final thought is to see what additional aging time can do to it, allowing micro oxidation to continue smoothing the product and hopefully mellowing the oak tannin.

Thoughts?
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HDNB
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by HDNB »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:34 pm Hey guys,

<snip>
The flavor is intense. <snip>

My first thought is building up some additional white spirit to add to the mix to dilute some of the flavor over time, leaving headspace and allowing longer aging time.

My other thought is to use this for blending into other spirits.

My final thought is to see what additional aging time can do to it, allowing micro oxidation to continue smoothing the product and hopefully mellowing the oak tannin.

Thoughts?
option 1, solera aging is great, but adding new make is only 1/2 the deal...you still got to add time.

option 2 blending...well if you got some good stuff and you want to mingle flavours, ok...blending white dog aint gonna work unless...see#1

option 3 if you mean in a bottle, more time will help a bit. a little.

personally i use solera all the time. i also have made an "essence" (wayyyyy overoaked) and will add that to new make that i'm setting down for a long rest....just to get things going and have some continuity from batch to batch
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VLAGAVULVIN
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

1. Let it oxigenate in a glass carboy. Aerate (blow it out) periodically with something like an aquarium pump. See if there will be changes within 2-3 months. Perhaps in six months everything will be fine.

2. Blend with other (sweeter) aged spirits if [1] did not help to transform it.

3. Adding new make is the last option in my list (see above about solera).

Just IMO, based on my own experience :)
And if your barrel is made of some American White Oak then very likely "you be lucky" / the extra unwished tannins will leave ya.

Good luck fella and never be in a hurry with making decisions ;)

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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by NZChris »

This is why I age in glass. I can leave it on the wood for many years and am able to proof the occasional bottle as it ages, without ever having to worry about over-oaking.

I have deliberately over-oaked experiments to the color of cola, left it on the wood for a couple of years and it has become drinkable on it's own, plus a valuable addition for when making blends. The astringency and woodiness from the tannins evolve into desirable flavors if you have the patience.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by Bushman »

I also use the Solera method as mentioned by HDNB. I label each container by product and date and set a reminder on my phone calendar.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

NZChris wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:40 pm This is why I age in glass.
Kicking the oak staves outta the glass vessel thereby I stop with further extraction still being able to go on with oxigenation, yeah.

Bushman wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:21 am I also use the Solera method as mentioned by HDNB. I label each container by product and date
+1 / so do I :)

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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Thanks for the replies guys.

I have the patience to let it ride for as long as it takes to see what happens. It’s definitely hitting the mark in all other aspects and would be pretty delicious if it didn’t have the excess tannin. The HBB recipe is great. I like it so much I’m actually replenishing the barrel with the same thing.

I have one of those oxygen wands for home brewing with an air stone on the end of it. I suppose I could just give it a blast every once it a while with the oxygen tank. There’s also a lot of airspace in the vessel above the liquid. I also have a cork stopper on the top. How often to you pump oxygen into it?

For solera, I’ve only briefly read about it. Is that the system where you remove some finished spirit and put the same amount of white spirit back in there?
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by HDNB »

NZChris wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:40 pm I have deliberately over-oaked experiments to the color of cola, left it on the wood for a couple of years and it has become drinkable on it's own, plus a valuable addition for when making blends. The astringency and woodiness from the tannins evolve into desirable flavors if you have the patience.
thats like the "essence" i have, it was/is a mixture of some butyric infected bourbon and topped off with barley and rye....in a big jar full of oak blocks. it's almost like oak syrup after 5 years, i have changed out blocks a few times. a little sip on it's own is kinda fun, it's a huge flavour almost need a knife and fork to cut off a slice. a second measure would be too much.
Great for blending for complexity tho!
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am How often to you pump oxygen into it?
Ehm,,, 15 minutes twice a month? Try to carefully heat it, by the way. There's a lot of detailed explanations about it all here on the forum. Guess you won't use pure oxygen ;)

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am For solera, I’ve only briefly read about it. Is that the system where you remove some finished spirit and put the same amount of white spirit back in there?
More or less, more or less... :)

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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

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VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:14 am
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am How often to you pump oxygen into it?
Ehm,,, 15 minutes twice a month? Try to carefully heat it, by the way. There's a lot of detailed explanations about it all here on the forum. Guess you won't use pure oxygen ;)

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 am For solera, I’ve only briefly read about it. Is that the system where you remove some finished spirit and put the same amount of white spirit back in there?
More or less, more or less... :)
Okay, you got me intrigued by the comment about pure oxygen. I’ve been searching around and can’t seem to find the right key words to put into the google HD search. I’m guessing this could cause over exposure to oxygen…?

Everything I’ve been finding is about aerating mash pre ferment or using an air pump for the finished product “like you suggested,” but I haven’t seen one about pure oxygen. I’m willing to do the research! Haha
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

HDNB wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:16 am
NZChris wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:40 pm I have deliberately over-oaked experiments to the color of cola, left it on the wood for a couple of years and it has become drinkable on it's own, plus a valuable addition for when making blends. The astringency and woodiness from the tannins evolve into desirable flavors if you have the patience.
thats like the "essence" i have, it was/is a mixture of some butyric infected bourbon and topped off with barley and rye....in a big jar full of oak blocks. it's almost like oak syrup after 5 years, i have changed out blocks a few times. a little sip on it's own is kinda fun, it's a huge flavour almost need a knife and fork to cut off a slice. a second measure would be too much.
Great for blending for complexity tho!
I should definitely try making some of this! Could be used as a simple addition to a sugar head for some mild oak flavor before aging. I have more than enough barrel stave wood from a Buffalo Trace barrel that was used for aging beer. So far everything I’ve been using it for has been fantastic with a little extra cleanup and toasting.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:04 pm Okay, you got me intrigued by the comment about pure oxygen. I’ve been searching around and can’t seem to find the right key words to put into the google HD search. I’m guessing this could cause over exposure to oxygen…?
<joke>Over exposure expected when dripping some highly concentrated H2O2 into the booze</joke> :ebiggrin:

Nah, man. By no means you should aerate it with pure oxygen. Indeed. Our booze is flammable by itself. Imagine we saturate it with O2 or O3 now... and then starting to nuke it in our sweathomee MWO. It'll be supermegachadhazardous, imo.

Sorry for my strange English. But I did mean :: no way to use pure oxy.

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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Thanks man!
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by HDNB »

solera is like 5 barrels in a row. you take drink stock from #5, add some back from 4. fill up 4 with 3, 3 with 2 and 2 with one...and you prolly figgered where the new make goes.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

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HDNB wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:21 pm solera is like 5 barrels in a row. you take drink stock from #5, add some back from 4. fill up 4 with 3, 3 with 2 and 2 with one...and you prolly figgered where the new make goes.
Okay, totally makes sense. Kinda like your own little liquor store where you pay for what you take with what you make. Fantastic concept.

Good lord I can’t imagine the time I’d need to invest to fill five 5gal barrels with spirit. My single run spirit runs with my 3” plated rig take about 7hrs and I usually need about 9 of them to fill a 5gal barrel with my typical hearts cut yield. That’s 315 hours of watching drips fill jars. I’d love that, but my wife sure wouldn’t! Haha you guys will need to tell me your secrets to keep your lady happy!

I’m assuming all the barrels need to be the good ole house recipe, so you better love the bourbon of choice. I suppose you could modify the profile by tweaking the recipe over time. Seems like a good way to have a pretty consistent product since it all averages out.

How do you prevent over oaking with this method? I’m assuming there’s a need for some barrels with a lot of use out of them to get started.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

HDNB wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:21 pm solera is like 5 barrels in a row.
More or less like that, yeah.
.
изображение_2022-06-30_101853748.png
.
But 2 or 3 stages of jars in my case so far :shifty:
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:54 pm Haha you guys will need to tell me your secrets to keep your lady happy!
Just get a larger house :)

In fact, you might check this concept out with the Mason jars placed in a row. Infuse your newmakes with more agressive & burnt oak chips. As you approach the end of the row, the staves should become "older and more exhausted" (used many times), while you can soak them in sherry, stout, barleywine etc. That soaking doesn't mean a day or a week. A couple of weeks at least, but better a couple of months or even years. We are the hobbyists and we are not in a hurry to get profit. Aren't we, guys?

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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Since fresh 5 gallon barrels can over oak sprits, it seems the Badmo barrel would be perfect for this method since you can leave stuff in them long term, essentially taking the variable of over oaking out of the equation.

If I purchased 5 Badmo barrels, I could start the process by filling all 5 in succession, wait until the first barrel is at least 2 years aged, then start the cycle. I’d just need to make sure I’m not drawing off too much product too quickly. Since the barrels are small, I’d probably only be able to collect a small amount at each time interval.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by jonnys_spirit »

Three BadMo sized vessels = approximately one 5 gallon barrel so multiple BadMo's or similar is one way.

I have a honey shine solera project going which currently uses four glass gallon jugs that I keep approximately 1/2 full and I'll use different charred/toasted oak and fruit wood in each jug or perhaps also only spent oak in the last jug so the earlier jugs in the series have newer charred or toasted while the oldest is more neutral so throughout the solera the new wood contribution is also diminished and over some time you get to a point of where you want to be with the oak..

Of course you can sample from the different barrels/jugs as well to see how it progresses :)

Cheers!
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Folks, the trick of solera system is...

1) the first in a row is sorta first-fill and stands for a faster extraction whereas the last in a row is in charge of oxydation and final stabilizing (it should be spent, exhausted, i.e. refiller)
2) there are always some molecules of the oldest / first ever filled spirit in solera vat... and they could be even 150 y.o. if your grandchildren don't mind...

8)

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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

jonnys_spirit wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:00 pm Three BadMo sized vessels = approximately one 5 gallon barrel so multiple BadMo's or similar is one way.

I have a honey shine solera project going which currently uses four glass gallon jugs that I keep approximately 1/2 full and I'll use different charred/toasted oak and fruit wood in each jug or perhaps also only spent oak in the last jug so the earlier jugs in the series have newer charred or toasted while the oldest is more neutral so throughout the solera the new wood contribution is also diminished and over some time you get to a point of where you want to be with the oak..

Of course you can sample from the different barrels/jugs as well to see how it progresses :)

Cheers!
-j
This is totally fascinating to me.

Since I was throwing around the idea of badmo barrels, If I used 3 and filled them in succession, then waited til the original barrel was at least 2 years aged to start the cycle, I could create the following method:

At year two when I go to collect, if I only draw off 0.75gallons of aged spirit, the 0.75gallons of new make would take 5 years before it touches my lips. 7 years will have passed at this point, giving me some well aged spirit over time, getting better and better every year. Once I start this process, it really wouldn’t require much distilling to maintain the cycle. Essentially one mash per year would get me there. The bulk of the work would be making enough spirit to fill the original barrels.

If I were to get 5 Badmo’s, I could stretch this to 9 years before the first of the white spirit makes it into the drinking bottle and I’ll have an 11 year old final barrel. This is awesome. Seems like a great way to age over time.

I suppose as the barrels start to give up their oak character, I could do a more aggressive pre-oaking step in a glass vessel with toasted stave pieces. I could also purchase some new Badmo’s and use the spent ones for aging spirits I’d like to keep white. Oh the possibilities!
Last edited by BrewinBrian44 on Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

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VLAGAVULVIN wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:37 pm Folks, the trick of solera system is...

1) the first in a row is sorta first-fill and stands for a faster extraction whereas the last in a row is in charge of oxydation and final stabilizing (it should be spent, exhausted, i.e. refiller)
2) there are always some molecules of the oldest / first ever filled spirit in solera vat... and they could be even 150 y.o. if your grandchildren don't mind...

8)
This makes a lot of sense. If they were all new oak barrels you’d end up drinking oak tea you could cut with a knife.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:45 pm This makes a lot of sense. If they were all new oak barrels you’d end up drinking oak tea you could cut with a knife.
Of course. So, I never throw my spent staves or chips away.

Get some sherry and add some raw cane sugar in. Start "cooking" with your chips. As it boils and evaporates, the chips will caramelize. Don't overburn them... bingo!

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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

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I threw some staves away today. They had already been in liquor for a while and were put in the pot with some low wines for today's spirit run.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

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NZChris wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:49 am and were put in the pot with some low wines for today's spirit run
Interesting...

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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

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BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:54 pm
Good lord I can’t imagine the time I’d need to invest to fill five 5gal barrels with spirit.
You don't... You fill your 5 gallon, that becomes virgin oaked spirit. While that is aging you build up for the next fill. Dump it to bottles; refill, the second use oak is going to take a lot more time to oak out. So while that one is oaking out you fill another virgin 5'er. Build your fill stock, fill, age, Take that virgin spirit out, refill, now you have one second use that's about half done, and one that is fresh, add another virgin, by the time that virgin is done, and you have refilled it you are ready to start another barrel fill. That first barrel is now a third use barrel, and has little oak to give, but is a great place to let the aging process continue, so you start kicking down barrel to barrel, this lets you accumulate your barrels for the solera over 5-10 years :). Your 3+ use barrels are essentially drinking stock reserves, that can take some serious age without the over oak/tannin extraction problem. Maybe after the third or fourth use you disassemble, scrape and re-char.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

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Ben wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:48 am
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:54 pm
Good lord I can’t imagine the time I’d need to invest to fill five 5gal barrels with spirit.
You don't... You fill your 5 gallon, that becomes virgin oaked spirit. While that is aging you build up for the next fill. Dump it to bottles; refill, the second use oak is going to take a lot more time to oak out. So while that one is oaking out you fill another virgin 5'er. Build your fill stock, fill, age, Take that virgin spirit out, refill, now you have one second use that's about half done, and one that is fresh, add another virgin, by the time that virgin is done, and you have refilled it you are ready to start another barrel fill. That first barrel is now a third use barrel, and has little oak to give, but is a great place to let the aging process continue, so you start kicking down barrel to barrel, this lets you accumulate your barrels for the solera over 5-10 years :). Your 3+ use barrels are essentially drinking stock reserves, that can take some serious age without the over oak/tannin extraction problem. Maybe after the third or fourth use you disassemble, scrape and re-char.
Sounds like a great strategy. I’ve already got the next white spirit ready for the second fill and the original fill in a carboy.

I’d like to try the Badmo idea too since it’s a lot less of a time commitment for a single recipe. It also gives me an opportunity to have a little more variety.
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Re: Well… think it’s over oaked

Post by The Baker »

Or better still set the barrels up as a solera.
That way you keep product of different ages mingling
rather than having separate barrels.

Look it up!

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