Why specifically American White Oak?
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Why specifically American White Oak?
Hello all.
Everyone who's experiences in aging, especially in this forum as far as I've read, strictly recommend using American White Oak. However, where I live it's impossible to acquire one. Only type of oaks available to my current location are Sessile Oak (Quercus Petraea) and Kermes Oak (Quercus Coccifera).
And I'm really sceptical towards oaks listed on Amazon as "Toasted White Oak cubes for BBQ", because what you receive is something yellowish & crimsonish piece of wood that just doesn't smell right, more like a half-burnt charcoal.
So my question is, what are the reasons behind choosing only American White Oak for aging besides its strength and the fact that it contains no resin? I'm asking this because if I learn what features make this wood so special maybe I can find a local alternative or maybe combine the features of multiple alternatives to obtain an imitative result. Also I would absolutely appreciate if anyone can recommend a tested alternative to the American White Oak.
Edit: I'm sorry in advance if the question I asked is already answered in this forum and I failed to find it during research before posting here.
Everyone who's experiences in aging, especially in this forum as far as I've read, strictly recommend using American White Oak. However, where I live it's impossible to acquire one. Only type of oaks available to my current location are Sessile Oak (Quercus Petraea) and Kermes Oak (Quercus Coccifera).
And I'm really sceptical towards oaks listed on Amazon as "Toasted White Oak cubes for BBQ", because what you receive is something yellowish & crimsonish piece of wood that just doesn't smell right, more like a half-burnt charcoal.
So my question is, what are the reasons behind choosing only American White Oak for aging besides its strength and the fact that it contains no resin? I'm asking this because if I learn what features make this wood so special maybe I can find a local alternative or maybe combine the features of multiple alternatives to obtain an imitative result. Also I would absolutely appreciate if anyone can recommend a tested alternative to the American White Oak.
Edit: I'm sorry in advance if the question I asked is already answered in this forum and I failed to find it during research before posting here.
- Stonecutter
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Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
A simple internet search for that exact thing will get you way more answers…
Here’s one that popped right up.z
https://www.whiskyadvocate.com/why-and- ... in-whisky/
Apparently we’re running out of Oak!! https://www.foodandwine.com/news/americ ... ainability
Here’s one that popped right up.z
https://www.whiskyadvocate.com/why-and- ... in-whisky/
Apparently we’re running out of Oak!! https://www.foodandwine.com/news/americ ... ainability
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
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- contrahead
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Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
It's all a big Ta-Do about nothing. (More formally : “Much Ado About Nothing”)
Yes. For many reasons that are explained in the link that Stonecutter linked to, oak is (currently) considered a superior material to age spirits with. But in the 4th paragraph of that 1st link, jumps out an egregious, potentially fallacious and erroneous assumption: “yet it would be a fool’s errand, as there remains no substitute for oak’s flavor—derived not only from the oak itself but also from its treatment”.
I've been given expensive books as birthday or Christmas presents, that delve into sophisticated wine making techniques, or which examine and rate the most prestigious whisky's or brandies of the world. I've partially read long winded doctoral theses or dissertations discussing the “terroir”of grapes, or of perhaps barley; but never before of trees.
All I have to say is bullshit, poppycock and “in a pig's eye”. Oak is not that big of a deal.
I lay no claim to being sensitive. Most all people are more sensitive than I am. Strategically, its simply wiser and safer to be stoic and hard, rather than to be soft, continually vulnerable and whimsically impressionable. No doubt there are drawbacks to being insensitive. Many extra sensitive people might pick up on taste and odors and other nuisances that I will absolutely miss. (I smoked a pipe for 30-40 years; don't anymore though - for 6 years ). But I think that I have a refined pallet, still. I know what I think is good. I am not ready to swallow someone else's fluff and hogwash about terroir, character, expression or spicy finishes – unless it jibes with my own experience. Articles like the one Stonecutter linked to are interesting, sometimes even educational. And sometimes they reek of “wood porn”.
For more than the last 2,000 years, Europeans have logged oak forest to the ground. Building rooftops requires wood. Good wood (in the past usually meaning oak – not pine, spruce, hemlock or fur). England historically (from the 17th to the 19th century) had the biggest navy, with the most rugged and well built ships – built of oak. During the Industrial Revolution in previous centuries, England completely denuded its island of oak trees, building ships. Oak barrels for whisky or wood for construction, were an afterthought.
The section mentioning the Quercus mongolica , the oak which Japaneese distillers use – is hilarious. Here is a country that cannot feed itself without importing food and raping the ocean. Yet in the markets they seem ready to spend $21.00 for a single Sekai-ichi apple ,
$121.00 for a Densuke watermelon
or $294.56 / lb ($18.42 / oz) for a Waguy steak. I am not impressed with the economy or practicality of such a mindset, and imagine that their estimation of a decent whisky, might be monetarily skewed as well. (Personally I would prefer to consume (12) $25.00 prime Kansas fed beef steaks to the consumption of one single Wagyu steak @ $300.00 each). The Wagyu might taste a tiny bit better, but I doubt that I would even notice; or care.
Within Stonecutter's links, the growing scarcity of oak is mentioned; as well as “three major terroirs” coming from the Appalachians, the Ozarks, and the northern forests. In truth (terroir be dammed) those are generally the only areas where white oak can still be harvested. White oak / any oak is simply a superior building material, and it has grown rare. In the 1960's one of my grandfathers owned a section of ranch land, smack dab in the middle of the Ozark mountains. His land was chock full of virgin white oak forest. Even 50-60 years ago the state of Arkansas was penalizing him (by way of taxation) for the value of that wood; while a neighbor who's land had already been stripped of oak, collected a yearly stipend from the Dept. of Agriculture – for not harvesting his land (already raped) and to let it lay fallow.
I am not here to say that (white) oak barrels are not a good way to age whisky. Perhaps even the best way, at the moment. But I am here to suggest that entirely too much attention is spent contemplating the seasoning, toasting, and charring of a specific tree. The type of wood is probably a distraction. Instead the art of maturation should be the key focus. While there are many plants and alkaloids that should be avoided, I suggest that there should still be many left (including different woods) – with which to achieve a pleasurable maturation of spirit.
Omnia mea mecum porto
Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
The truth of American white oak is that it was readily available for making barrels.
Barrels were the shipping container of convenience.
Old used sherry barrels from America to age the whisky in was cheap and convenient.
Kind of like buying a food-grade PTFE 50-gallon drum is dirt cheap and locally available today.
Now the American oak barrel is expensive and hard to come by.
Of course, it doesn't really matter what wood the barrel is made out of they are all expensive and hard to come by
Barrels were the shipping container of convenience.
Old used sherry barrels from America to age the whisky in was cheap and convenient.
Kind of like buying a food-grade PTFE 50-gallon drum is dirt cheap and locally available today.
Now the American oak barrel is expensive and hard to come by.
Of course, it doesn't really matter what wood the barrel is made out of they are all expensive and hard to come by
Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
the wagyu is prolly worth it.
oak? cause it made good barrels a few hundred years ago. white oak? prolly cause there was lots of it near ports.
is it the only wood to use? only if you are looking for a certain "expression" of whisky. european oak (french) adds a nice spicy-ness. red oak i'm told has bitter flavors. maple works, but tastes like maple...go figure. i tried cherry once. the color was awesome, the flavor ok but man did it give me a headache! (doesn't to everyone)
if the flavor is ok and you like it (apple?) use it. if you are sensitive to it or google says its an irritant with side effects...maybe don't use it.
but if you are in Turkey and you can get euro or french oak i dont think you would be disappointed.
posting same time as ^^^^
oak? cause it made good barrels a few hundred years ago. white oak? prolly cause there was lots of it near ports.
is it the only wood to use? only if you are looking for a certain "expression" of whisky. european oak (french) adds a nice spicy-ness. red oak i'm told has bitter flavors. maple works, but tastes like maple...go figure. i tried cherry once. the color was awesome, the flavor ok but man did it give me a headache! (doesn't to everyone)
if the flavor is ok and you like it (apple?) use it. if you are sensitive to it or google says its an irritant with side effects...maybe don't use it.
but if you are in Turkey and you can get euro or french oak i dont think you would be disappointed.
posting same time as ^^^^
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
- Stonecutter
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Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
Sweet write up Contra. I agree with you there on a great many levels.contrahead wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:46 pm
It's all a big Ta-Do about nothing. (More formally : “Much Ado About Nothing”)
Instead the art of maturation should be the key focus. While there are many plants and alkaloids that should be avoided, I suggest that there should still be many left (including different woods) – with which to achieve a pleasurable maturation of spirit.
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine
-Thomas Paine
Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
White oak (American or otherwise) is used for barrels because its pores are naturally filled with a tissue called tyloses which helps this otherwise porous wood resist the flow of liquids. Also it responds reasonably well to bending and isn't bad to work.
Originally those would have been the reasons to use white oak, not for flavor. In fact, coopers go through considerable effort to weather their oak (for years!) to reduce the considerable tannins in white oak.
If you're making barrels I'd say white oak is a safe bet, but something like maple, birch or cherry being less porous woods may be worth trying, but I'd do a lot of experiments before I'd put gallons of good liquor in there!
If you're aging in stainless or glass like many of us do you gain a LOT of flexibility. You don't need to worry about porosity and you get much more control over the ratio of exposed wood to the volume of liquid. You'll find some talk about it here, often focussed around fruit tree woods. I would look for food-safe woods like maple and cherry and make sure to avoid anything that's treated or has finish on it. I haven't gone down this road either, but I'd say start small, try different amounts of wood sampling over a period of time, and let us know what you discover!
Good luck.
TwoSheds
Originally those would have been the reasons to use white oak, not for flavor. In fact, coopers go through considerable effort to weather their oak (for years!) to reduce the considerable tannins in white oak.
If you're making barrels I'd say white oak is a safe bet, but something like maple, birch or cherry being less porous woods may be worth trying, but I'd do a lot of experiments before I'd put gallons of good liquor in there!
If you're aging in stainless or glass like many of us do you gain a LOT of flexibility. You don't need to worry about porosity and you get much more control over the ratio of exposed wood to the volume of liquid. You'll find some talk about it here, often focussed around fruit tree woods. I would look for food-safe woods like maple and cherry and make sure to avoid anything that's treated or has finish on it. I haven't gone down this road either, but I'd say start small, try different amounts of wood sampling over a period of time, and let us know what you discover!
Good luck.
TwoSheds
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Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
Staves for barrel making need to be split from billets of straight grained wood. For the sake of efficiency then you need to have access to large diameter trees with no twists or large knots. I don't know how cherry grows in plantations but the cherry trees I'm used to seeing would not provide a lot of raw material.
It may be possible to replace oak's flavour characteristics but there are practicality issues to be overcome as well for barrel making.
It may be possible to replace oak's flavour characteristics but there are practicality issues to be overcome as well for barrel making.
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Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
I would say it doesn't have to be AMERICAN white oak. However different oak species have slightly different characteristics (as I am sure you can guess).
I have a cooperage fairly local to me, and have bought some barrels from them, and asked somewhat about the differences between American, French and Portuguese oak (where I am).
The biggest difference, was the density/porosity of the grain structure. I saw the staves ageing, and French oak tended to be more open, whilst American/Portuguese were more closed. i suppose this translates to rate of oxygenation on the spirits during ageing.
The important process in preparation of the oak is the SEASONING. This is where the virgin oak is left to age (typically outside) for a number of years. This cooperage ages its oak for 3 years.
Here's some photos I took (it was back in May 2020!), so I don't recall exactly what each one was...
View of some of the barrel staves ageing: View of the end grains. Not sure if this was a comparison between French and US oak, but we can't really see any difference in the photo if it was. There WAS a very noticeable difference visually, though. Staves in various stages of ageing. Fresh, one year,two year and 3 year aged (second row back). The aged ones have the patina removed before they are worked into barrels. Hope it's a bit interesting for you
I have a cooperage fairly local to me, and have bought some barrels from them, and asked somewhat about the differences between American, French and Portuguese oak (where I am).
The biggest difference, was the density/porosity of the grain structure. I saw the staves ageing, and French oak tended to be more open, whilst American/Portuguese were more closed. i suppose this translates to rate of oxygenation on the spirits during ageing.
The important process in preparation of the oak is the SEASONING. This is where the virgin oak is left to age (typically outside) for a number of years. This cooperage ages its oak for 3 years.
Here's some photos I took (it was back in May 2020!), so I don't recall exactly what each one was...
View of some of the barrel staves ageing: View of the end grains. Not sure if this was a comparison between French and US oak, but we can't really see any difference in the photo if it was. There WAS a very noticeable difference visually, though. Staves in various stages of ageing. Fresh, one year,two year and 3 year aged (second row back). The aged ones have the patina removed before they are worked into barrels. Hope it's a bit interesting for you
Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
Sweet photo's TommyB.
One thing that hasn't been brought up is rot resistance, white oak is very rot resistant, it can handle being in contact with water and the ground for long periods. Red oak, cherry, maple cannot. Sure you could use something like Teak, or sassafrass, but I am not sure you would appreciate the spirit that came from it.
At home distiller scale, where a barrels life is measured in maybe years it might not matter, but in the commercial sector where a barrels lifetime is decades it certainly does.
We don't have to play by the same rules as the big boys, here's a great member experiment: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=72255
Whatever wood you select, make sure it isn't kiln dried, kiln dried wood won't take the bending required. Staves have to be split, and cracking could be a real issue with closed-grain woods in attempting to make a liquid tight barrel.
One thing that hasn't been brought up is rot resistance, white oak is very rot resistant, it can handle being in contact with water and the ground for long periods. Red oak, cherry, maple cannot. Sure you could use something like Teak, or sassafrass, but I am not sure you would appreciate the spirit that came from it.
At home distiller scale, where a barrels life is measured in maybe years it might not matter, but in the commercial sector where a barrels lifetime is decades it certainly does.
We don't have to play by the same rules as the big boys, here's a great member experiment: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=72255
Whatever wood you select, make sure it isn't kiln dried, kiln dried wood won't take the bending required. Staves have to be split, and cracking could be a real issue with closed-grain woods in attempting to make a liquid tight barrel.
:)
Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
Some great posts folks. Cheers!
I learned I'd like to get my hands on some Oregon oak...sounds like it'd be real nice in rum.
I learned I'd like to get my hands on some Oregon oak...sounds like it'd be real nice in rum.
Through the magic of alchemy, our spirits live on.
Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
A gigantic thank you to everyone for taking time and contributing! This website deserves to be printed and published as a fancy and expensive book
Even though American White Oak is internationally recognized as the best aging wood for Whiskey and provides unique flavors that might be hard to imitade, what I'm gathering from here is that it won't be a disappointment and most likely no one including myself will make a sour face after sipping just because I used a different type of oak or a fruit tree (especially excited about fruit tree after reading OtisT's thread Ben shared).
And thanks to tommysb's photos I can know approximately visualize a color pattern in my mind to select the very best when I go to a local woodseller.
With my next corn mash I'm starting with a piece from the mulberry tree in my garden or a century old European oak that is recently fell down by getting strucked by lightning. I don't think many people tried lightning-charred wood aging before hahaha. When I try those alternatives and maybe more, I will definitely share the results.
Even though American White Oak is internationally recognized as the best aging wood for Whiskey and provides unique flavors that might be hard to imitade, what I'm gathering from here is that it won't be a disappointment and most likely no one including myself will make a sour face after sipping just because I used a different type of oak or a fruit tree (especially excited about fruit tree after reading OtisT's thread Ben shared).
And thanks to tommysb's photos I can know approximately visualize a color pattern in my mind to select the very best when I go to a local woodseller.
With my next corn mash I'm starting with a piece from the mulberry tree in my garden or a century old European oak that is recently fell down by getting strucked by lightning. I don't think many people tried lightning-charred wood aging before hahaha. When I try those alternatives and maybe more, I will definitely share the results.
Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
You have to try this, even if its a small jar. It might taste good, but the cool factor would be off the scale!
Cool pics tommysb!
- still_stirrin
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Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
A whole new meaning to: “white lightning”.
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Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
I don't have much to add, the boys much more experienced than me have already said a lot. My experience is with a common oak found locally (Italy), left to season a few years, I only took the tough and toasted. In the construction of the barrels, the characteristics of the wood are imported, if instead you insert sticks in the glass jars, perhaps you would find less difference, perhaps there would be a difference in terms of quantity of tannins, I would not know with certainty. I can also say that the oak is not the only possible wood, for example I really like chestnut (here where I live in wine barrels at a good price), the cherry is also interesting but it can be intrusive if you dose badly .. I did of wooden mixes with excellent results (one of the advantages to use them in glass container). In addition to the barrels you may find wood in the Bricolage stores as long as it is not treated virgin wood, then you could make a roasting at home.
Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
Been doing a lot of reading about white oak and identification of trees on my property. I've come to some conclusions and more questions.
https://www.wood-database.com/wood-arti ... white-oak/
"White oak, however, has its pores plugged with tyloses, which help make white oak suitable for water-tight vessels, and give it increased resistance to rot and decay." I think this is the reason it was used for ship making and carried over into barrels for holding containers.
In a search to find resources I found this document and YouTube video, which benefits my freezer and my liquor hobby
https://www.catmanoutdoors.com/southeastern-oak-trees-1
"Deer Preference
Most acorns contain tannic acid (tannin), a very bitter substance used in tanning leather. Deer generally prefer acorns with less tannin. However, preference may vary from one tree to the next, and often depends on what kind of acorns are available in your area.
Red oaks produce acorns with higher tannin levels. The tannin preserves the acorn over the winter so it can germinate and sprout in the spring.
White oak acorns sprout shortly after they fall, so they do not require the high tannin levels to resist rotting. Because of this, white oak acorns are less bitter, sometimes even sweet, and are usually the preferred acorn for deer and other wild game. Some species of white oak produce acorns that are mild enough for humans to eat raw."
Did they know this and use white oak for the two above reasons, or did they just get lucky and use white oak for the same reason they used it for ship building and got lucky on the second?
I learned white oak is a group and not just a single tree. in both of those websites and this one (https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1985/mille85a.pdf) they discuss several different species and the ability to test for the difference with 10% sodium nitrite solution.
https://www.wood-database.com/wood-arti ... white-oak/
"White oak, however, has its pores plugged with tyloses, which help make white oak suitable for water-tight vessels, and give it increased resistance to rot and decay." I think this is the reason it was used for ship making and carried over into barrels for holding containers.
In a search to find resources I found this document and YouTube video, which benefits my freezer and my liquor hobby
https://www.catmanoutdoors.com/southeastern-oak-trees-1
"Deer Preference
Most acorns contain tannic acid (tannin), a very bitter substance used in tanning leather. Deer generally prefer acorns with less tannin. However, preference may vary from one tree to the next, and often depends on what kind of acorns are available in your area.
Red oaks produce acorns with higher tannin levels. The tannin preserves the acorn over the winter so it can germinate and sprout in the spring.
White oak acorns sprout shortly after they fall, so they do not require the high tannin levels to resist rotting. Because of this, white oak acorns are less bitter, sometimes even sweet, and are usually the preferred acorn for deer and other wild game. Some species of white oak produce acorns that are mild enough for humans to eat raw."
Did they know this and use white oak for the two above reasons, or did they just get lucky and use white oak for the same reason they used it for ship building and got lucky on the second?
I learned white oak is a group and not just a single tree. in both of those websites and this one (https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1985/mille85a.pdf) they discuss several different species and the ability to test for the difference with 10% sodium nitrite solution.
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- SaltyStaves
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Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
The most common oak for bbq/smoking in the the US is Post Oak (Quercus stellata). No idea what it is like for aging. If I were trying to mimic anything resembling American Whiskey, I would stick with Quercus Alba.
Quercus Alba is unique in that it contains significantly more Oak lactones than other species. It can be argued that this is a significant contributing character in Bourbon/Rye. Coconut and Oaky flavours.
These lactones are largely extracted in the first use, so spirits like Scotch, Rum etc that typically use ex-bourbon barrels, are relatively low in oak lactones.
Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
I've used post oak.before. works real nice.
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Re: Why specifically American White Oak?
Post oak smokes grains for a whiskey with incredible flavor profile similar to mescal. I have half a 15 gallon barrel, half filled in a used bourbon barrel from a local distillery that went kaput, and the local owner of the brewpub is smoking another 50# sack for me with post oak, which should be ready any day. I plan to fill the rest of the barrel by September.
Regarding the aging, all the reasons for it make sense to me, but also something I noticed is that we are now conditioned to enjoy that flavor profile. If necessity demands change, and it holds up for over 200 years, I'm sure people will find reasons to support that type of barrel. I enjoy the oak and perceived sweetness of bourbon, also the more grain forward complexity and subtlety of scotch, especially when finished in sherry casks.
I'll be interested to see how our bourbon grain bill turns out in our 15 gallon ex bourbon cask that only held bourbon for 18 months. I'm thinking in cooler conditions with less temperature swings, up to 3 years, in humidity controlled environment, we may still end up with a strong oak traditional bourbon profile. We added a jar each on either side of the cuts for depth and complexity. I'm hoping to report back in each year to provide feedback from our experiments.
Regarding the aging, all the reasons for it make sense to me, but also something I noticed is that we are now conditioned to enjoy that flavor profile. If necessity demands change, and it holds up for over 200 years, I'm sure people will find reasons to support that type of barrel. I enjoy the oak and perceived sweetness of bourbon, also the more grain forward complexity and subtlety of scotch, especially when finished in sherry casks.
I'll be interested to see how our bourbon grain bill turns out in our 15 gallon ex bourbon cask that only held bourbon for 18 months. I'm thinking in cooler conditions with less temperature swings, up to 3 years, in humidity controlled environment, we may still end up with a strong oak traditional bourbon profile. We added a jar each on either side of the cuts for depth and complexity. I'm hoping to report back in each year to provide feedback from our experiments.