Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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River Rat
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Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by River Rat »

I have a question and used the search with no great results. Here is the back story in a nut shell.

Just tried my first sugar wash. I have been doing all grain mashes for many years and have had great success in the past few years. Point being that I'm familiar with the different cuts during a run and I'm comfortable making cuts.... on my AG mashes.

I recently tried rad's all bran recipe looking for a mostly flavorless spirit. I did a strip and two (very slow) spirit runs making cuts on each run. By the third run I thought the heads and tails would be minimal, and it did seem that way at first. Out of 8 jars 2 were too "headsy" and the last one was too "tailsy" so they were tossed in the feints jug. Out of the jars I would keep the last and weakest jar was 84% abv.

This is where I think I made the mistake. When making those final cuts after the 3rd run I didn't dilute and taste. I did it only based on smell after airing the jars out for a few days. None of them had even a hint of tails smell and nothing was lower than 84% abv. Now they're all blended together, and when I dilute to about 40% it tastes like a straight tails jar. I mean bad, strong, tails. The rest of it that I haven't diluted still has no hint of tails smell.

Surely this is not what a sugar wash is supposed to taste like? If the spirit is coming off the still at 84% could it be carrying any sort of tails over at that point? Thank you all for any input.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by Saltbush Bill »

You wont make flavourless spirit at 84% ......its hard enough to get true neutral at 94-5 % using a good reflux still and a real clean wash imo.
Real tight cuts are important as well.
Anything comming out of a reflux still at 84% is going to be very very tailsy from my experience so you wouldnt even take that part of the run.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by River Rat »

Thanks Bill. I was hoping somebody with reflux experience would chime in. I've been kicking around the idea of building a CM or VM attachment to insert into my existing setup. In the mean time I'll try to be more diligent with the cuts. Appreciate the info.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Ok.

River rat, 2 things. First, if you don't have a vm or cm head, what are you using for reflux? Lm? What's your rig?

Seems like your trying to do several runs through a pot still and trying to get nuetral. (It ain't going to happen). If that's the case, you need to do 3 runs, minimum, though 5 would be better. Each time, you are only keeping hearts. Not a little heads, a little tails, just center each time. Additionally, you need to soak your low wines in baking soda each time between runs. And lastly, you need to set up a stainless steel and carbon filter, for best results. The final cut goes through it.
That's how my buddy does it (member here). If you do that, it will taste just like my nuetral (angers me I can't tell the difference, lol). The difference in my process? I simply strip once through my pot still, and then once as a spirit run through my CCVM. Cut like normal, going for tight nuetral.

You want to do the job, get the right tool. With enough dumb patience you could paint a Zebra completely white and try to break it, or you can just get a proper stallion. Time is your call, though.

Second, regardless of still type or wash volume, you don't have enough jars. You need 20-30 jars. Any less, you're wasting liquor and time. I won't even try to fix your issue with cuts until you fix this.

Bonus material : In my proper reflux column, I pull tails at 96%. Quoting ABV while talking about cut points is meaningless.

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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by Butch27 »

River Rat wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:46 am .... In the mean time I'll try to be more diligent with the cuts. ....
I've never run a reflux but to me it sounds like if you cut any more, there will be nothing left. :D
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

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ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:18 am Ok.

River rat, 2 things. First, if you don't have a vm or cm head, what are you using for reflux? Lm? What's your rig?
I'm not refluxing at all right now. There may be a very small amount of natural reflux happening - my riser is 2" copper X 26" tall, fully packed with copper mesh.

Seems like your trying to do several runs through a pot still and trying to get nuetral. (It ain't going to happen). If that's the case, you need to do 3 runs, minimum, though 5 would be better. Each time, you are only keeping hearts. Not a little heads, a little tails, just center each time. Additionally, you need to soak your low wines in baking soda each time between runs. And lastly, you need to set up a stainless steel and carbon filter, for best results. The final cut goes through it.
That's how my buddy does it (member here). If you do that, it will taste just like my nuetral (angers me I can't tell the difference, lol). The difference in my process? I simply strip once through my pot still, and then once as a spirit run through my CCVM. Cut like normal, going for tight nuetral.
I've been doing several pot still runs trying to get a flavorless spirit. I'm not concerned with reaching any certain abv. Although it sounds like the two go hand in hand - to get flavorless you need to get to azeo, or make 5ish runs and then filter.

You want to do the job, get the right tool. With enough dumb patience you could paint a Zebra completely white and try to break it, or you can just get a proper stallion. Time is your call, though.
I may do this, mostly for the love of building. I'm really a whiskey guy and this quest for no flavor is more of an experiment than anything else.

Second, regardless of still type or wash volume, you don't have enough jars. You need 20-30 jars. Any less, you're wasting liquor and time. I won't even try to fix your issue with cuts until you fix this.
I will give that a try. I have plenty of them, just hadn't been using that many.

Bonus material : In my proper reflux column, I pull tails at 96%. Quoting ABV while talking about cut points is meaningless.
Very good info. I guess I kinda got tunnel vision after doing one style of recipe on the same pot still for so long.

SCD
Thanks for taking the time to share all that info. Good stuff.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by River Rat »

Butch27 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:53 am
River Rat wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 3:46 am .... In the mean time I'll try to be more diligent with the cuts. ....
I've never run a reflux but to me it sounds like if you cut any more, there will be nothing left. :D
Yeah I know. I'm not used to calling this much of a run "feints"!
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by NZChris »

Try a more neutral wash, like Shady’s Sugar Shine.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Yup. I just threw down 60 gallons of shady's last night. Such a clean smell. 3/4 cup fermax, 5-b vit, 50lbs sugar in 30 gallons water. Very simple and balanced. I can ferment as fast as I want with temp and be done in 3 days, but I like stress free liquor for both me and my yeast. Much better product if I let it ferment in the high 80s and finish in 5 or 6 days. Or whatever it wants, lol.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by Dathhu »

I get your pain River Rat, trying to do this by one sense alone just doesn't work all the time.

I'm getting really good at picking where the heads end from smell, maybe a drop on the finger to taste but tails are hard to pick in a sugar wash without tasting it diluted. Had about 200ml of product towards the end of the run that smelled pretty clean, tasted alright from a few drops. Mixed it 50/50 with some water and tails was all I could taste.

Glad I'd gone to smaller jars before that point, but made me realise that even if something smells clean, if there's even a slight whiff of something there it's probably not going to be clean enough.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by River Rat »

Copy that Dathhu. I'll never again make cuts without diluting and tasting.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by Deplorable »

+1 on the right tool for the job.
Get yourself another spool to make 40 inches of packable height, and build a simple CCVM. Even if you only make a gallon or two of neutral a year for SPD and other girly drinks, it's worth it.
Make a big Shady's wash, strip it with the pot still. Dilute the low wines to 25 to 30% and run it through the CCVM. Run in equilibrium for half and hour and start taking spirit, nice and slow, maintaining a semi flooded state in the column. Speed up a little to about 1 to 1.2 l per hour maintaining the same state in the column. Make judicious cuts and you'll be able to blend a good neutral at 95% easy peasy.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by River Rat »

Deplorable wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:42 pm +1 on the right tool for the job.
Get yourself another spool to make 40 inches of packable height, and build a simple CCVM. Even if you only make a gallon or two of neutral a year for SPD and other girly drinks, it's worth it.
Make a big Shady's wash, strip it with the pot still. Dilute the low wines to 25 to 30% and run it through the CCVM. Run in equilibrium for half and hour and start taking spirit, nice and slow, maintaining a semi flooded state in the column. Speed up a little to about 1 to 1.2 l per hour maintaining the same state in the column. Make judicious cuts and you'll be able to blend a good neutral at 95% easy peasy.
Dammit you've talked me into spending some more money! Seriously though, I've been keeping an eye out for parts and planning that build for this winter when things are slower. I figured I'd always be a pot stiller but I gotta do something with all these feints.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by Deplorable »

Yep. It always comes in handy.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by NZChris »

River Rat wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:52 pm Copy that Dathhu. I'll never again make cuts without diluting and tasting.
I never commit my choice of cut into one vessel without making up a sample and tasting it. Re-sampling it the next day before you finally blend it is never a bad idea. It gives your taste buds time to recover.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by SDEngr1 »

I've pulled tails at 92% ABV. I believe it is a myth you can determine tails by the ABV. I have found the best way to determine when tails arrive is to watch the condensate drops hit the liquid with a side light illuminating the pool. You will clearly see the drops penetrating the surface and even a "tail" of product being dispersed. I will also dilute to 35% and taste but the visual has cleared up any doubts I have had. Having said that you will get an occasional drop with a tail but an occasional isn't a problem. Once the tails hit almost every drop will display the tail.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by The Baker »

:?
I never run my pot still so slowly that there are DROPS falling from the condenser.

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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by shadylane »

Sugar wash tails suck and ABV is useless for deciding when to stop.
On a stripping run, visually watching for an oil film kinda works ok.
But for a spirit run, you have to wait till the next day to figure out what is hearts or feints.
Only taste and smell will help make the decision.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by Metalking00 »

SDEngr1 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:09 pm I've pulled tails at 92% ABV. I believe it is a myth you can determine tails by the ABV. I have found the best way to determine when tails arrive is to watch the condensate drops hit the liquid with a side light illuminating the pool. You will clearly see the drops penetrating the surface and even a "tail" of product being dispersed. I will also dilute to 35% and taste but the visual has cleared up any doubts I have had. Having said that you will get an occasional drop with a tail but an occasional isn't a problem. Once the tails hit almost every drop will display the tail.
You can see the same thing if the temp of the output drips and the temp of the volume youve already collected are different. When i run my boka and the output is pretty hot you can see what youre talking about pretty much throughout the run (the collection vessel has had time to cool relative to the output). Its watching a tiny thermocline mix, which looks similar to liquids of different composition mixing. I used to work as a divemaster, and in very calm water you can see pretty small variations in temperatue and salinity (mostly in caves where things are dead still).

With my boka (and the potstill if i let the output be a bit warm), ive found that when the tails are about to start the sides of the collecting jar begin to fog just a bit. This doesnt happen on the potstill if the output is cold, though.
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Re: Sugar wash tails took me by surprise?

Post by Demy »

Smell and taste remain the best indicators, my opinion. A reflux system is almost mandatory to get a good neutral as well as a good recipe.
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