Molasses brix and measurement question

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Wheelup
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Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

I'm measuring the brix of some molasses I bought locally here in The Philippines.

Some info - I bought it from someone locally and they didn't really give me many details apart from that its locally sourced. It smells of licorice and tastes sweet and pretty good. It's viscosity could be compared to wood glue. There are no 'bits' in it.

I also have some molasses in the cupboard that's my wifes, I smelled and compared the two, they are very similar similar. The shop bought molasses is from the 'Wholesome sweeteners' brand, fairtrade, USDA organic and cost around x50 or more of what I paid for mine. It's a US product but states it comes from Paraguay.

For my brix testing I'm using a manual refractometer, similar to those I've seen many others using. It only goes up to 10 - so I'm diluting the molasses.

I had a go with some water and sugar to see if the refractometer was working ok and it seemed fine.

For the molasses I diluted it 1/10 using 100ml of molasses and 900ml of water. The brix for this solution was around 10. I thought this was odd so I divided the solution by half and added another 500ml of water. So 100% dilution? I presumed this would bring the brix down to 5 and it did.

So I presume the brix is so high because the density of the molasses is higher than water so I need to add more water to get a true 1/10 dilution. The problem is my chemistry and math for this is pretty much at its limit. So here I am! how much water do I need to add to get a true 1/10 dilution or thereabouts? how do I get an accurate brix measurement of my molasses?

TLDR: how much water to add to measure the brix of my molasses? how to measure molasses brix with a manual refractometer?
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Sporacle »

:D Yeah I got confused at the start, the way I would measure Brix is to go to the tried and true section and use it as per one of the rum recipes there, I've taken OG and FG and nothing seemed to make sense. Mix as per recipe wait till it's dry and stopped doing stuff then run it.
For your calcs I believe it's about 50 percent or less sugars dependant on grade and source.
Good luck :D
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Yummyrum »

Mollasses has a much higher density than water .
It is typically 1.360 - 1.400

That means that 1 litre of Molasses will weigh 1.36- 1.4kg

Sporacle is correct that molasses is not all fermentable sugar . Older less efficient mills might have as high as 50% sugar left in the Blackstrap ( final Molasses )whereas a modern mill can extract so much sugar , there is close to only 40% left in it.

So we can fairly say that 1 litre of molasses will contain somewhere around 600-700gms of sugar .

Now Brix meters don’t measure sugar , they measure density ( or how thick and guey something it is compared to water ). You could be measuring mud , wood glue , snot or even dog shit ….. all will give a Brix reading , but none have any sugar n them . :ewink:

How ever , most Rum distilleries that make all molasses Rum will aim fir a Brix no lower than 20 and maybe uo to 25 .This takes into account all the other 50-60% of non -fermentable fibre and minerals that makes up the other part of the density of the molasses that isn’t sugar .

So in saying that , I think your aim of 10Brix is really low as is your 1/10 dillution thinking …. It will result in a really low ABV wash probably around 3% or less.


Sporicle was also bang on the money in suggesting you look at the tried and true recipes on this forum . :thumbup:

May I suggest Salty Bush Bills easy All Molases Rum
.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 3#p7530801


I make an almost identical Wash . We’ve pretty much through years of tweaking all come to the same proportions that believe it or not happens to be pretty dam close to the proportions Commercial Rum guys use too.It results in a Wash that finishes around 7-8%ABV .

For the record , my Rum ferment is 15 Litres of Molasses, 5 Litres of Dunder , 30 Litres Water .

Now , I’m not anal about 15 Litres of Molases . I take a 20 Litre Pale to the rural store and ask them to 3/4 fill it . Maybe sometimes its 14 … sometimes its 16 … either-way , it makes a good Rum . But if I was only using 5 litres worth in a 50 litre wash , that would be a whole other problem .
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Demy »

Usually if I don't know S.G. Of something I use a system similar to yours: I take a 100ml (or higher) graduated container, I put the substance to be measured up to 10ml, I add water until it reaches 100ml, then I measure.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by still_stirrin »

Wheelup wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:12 pm… I presume the brix is so high because the density of the molasses is higher than water … how much water do I need to add to get a true 1/10 dilution or thereabouts? how do I get an accurate brix measurement of my molasses?

TLDR: how much water to add to measure the brix of my molasses? how to measure molasses brix with a manual refractometer?
I don’t know about your molly, but I’ve used commercial “deer lick” molasses from the Tractor Supply Company. It was marked as 84 brix. I used 1 gallon in 7 gallons of water and I got an OG reading with my hydrometer of 1.100. It has a lot of “stuff” in it making the density very high.

But, I don’t have a refractometer, which measures the sugar content by the “angle of refraction” the light makes as it passes through the solution. The refractometer uses a prism to bend the light and as such will have a range of brix for which it will read accurately.

It sounds like your refractometer is for lower sugar concentrations than the molasses you’ve acquired. Diluting 100ml with 900ml water would give you a 10% solution and if “readable” with your refractometer, would indicate the sugar concentration in the jug of molly to be 10 times greater than what you measure with the dilute solution.

As Yummy said, a reasonable ferment starting sugar content of 20-25 brix is good. And assuming your 10% dilution measured 10 brix, indicating the jug close to 100 brix, a 1:5 dilution should get you close. But, I would actually dilute it a little more to 1:7, allowing it to finish lower. Remember, you can’t use the refractometer once fermentation starts. You must use a hydrometer.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Yummyrum »

From a supplier of Molasses .
1779440D-24B2-4546-ABB7-717284645890.jpeg
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

Sporacle wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:31 am :D Yeah I got confused at the start, the way I would measure Brix is to go to the tried and true section and use it as per one of the rum recipes there, I've taken OG and FG and nothing seemed to make sense. Mix as per recipe wait till it's dry and stopped doing stuff then run it.
For your calcs I believe it's about 50 percent or less sugars dependant on grade and source.
Good luck :D
Thanks mate, enjoying the ride for sure and the challenge! Thing is I'm planning to assess the molasses before I run a fermentation. I'm starting to think the only way might be to do some test ferments with a few different molasses that I can get and then check the resulting abv? I'll definitely be looking at the recipe help once I've found the molasses that I want to buy more of.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by The Baker »

Some experienced rum makers like to judge the molasses by sticking a finger in and tasting it.

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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:01 am

So in saying that , I think your aim of 10Brix is really low as is your 1/10 dillution thinking …. It will result in a really low ABV wash probably around 3% or less.


Sporicle was also bang on the money in suggesting you look at the tried and true recipes on this forum . :thumbup:

May I suggest Salty Bush Bills easy All Molases Rum
.

https://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtop ... 3#p7530801


I make an almost identical Wash . We’ve pretty much through years of tweaking all come to the same proportions that believe it or not happens to be pretty dam close to the proportions Commercial Rum guys use too.It results in a Wash that finishes around 7-8%ABV .

For the record , my Rum ferment is 15 Litres of Molasses, 5 Litres of Dunder , 30 Litres Water .

Now , I’m not anal about 15 Litres of Molases . I take a 20 Litre Pale to the rural store and ask them to 3/4 fill it . Maybe sometimes its 14 … sometimes its 16 … either-way , it makes a good Rum . But if I was only using 5 litres worth in a 50 litre wash , that would be a whole other problem .
Thanks so much for the detailed reply. The plan for diluting the molasses down was so to look at it through the refractometer as it's maximum reading is 10% brix? (maybe I need a new refractometer!) I'm not at the wash making stage yet, the plan was really to find a good molasses through some testing as there's so many different people selling it locally here I've no idea about the quality of those available, they seem to pretty much all come in unlabelled plastic bottles, buckets, jimmy cans, barrels or even bring your own wheelbarrow and fill 'er up. I think some of them are diluted already for easier use.

Interesting that you talk about efficiency of the sugar mills, apparently the big one near me is really inefficient and I've heard its a good thing for the molasses when it comes to rum. A good friend of mine bought some recently for his animals and has promised to take me up there at the end of the month which will be great to see it all first hand and get a few gallons.

I had an idea that the density was higher in the molasses but I'm not sure how that reflects in dilution. If 100ml of molasses has a density of around 20-30% more than water. Do I add that much more water per dilution quantity, so instead of adding 900ml of water to 100ml or molasses to get a 1/10 dilution do I add 1200ml (approx 30% more) to 100 ml. I think I've answered the question to myself, getting a brix reading is not only going to be quite inaccurate with my limited knowledge and equipment but also perhaps not that important at this stage - better to just ferment some and see what happens, if it comes out around 7-8% or more we are in the money! if it doesn't then we're in the shit (hopefully not those unfermentables you mentioned)
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

Demy wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:58 am Usually if I don't know S.G. Of something I use a system similar to yours: I take a 100ml (or higher) graduated container, I put the substance to be measured up to 10ml, I add water until it reaches 100ml, then I measure.
Good to know I seem to have the bit right!I thought I was a genius when I realised adding 100ml to 10ml would make more that a 1/10 dilution.

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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

[/quote]


As Yummy said, a reasonable ferment starting sugar content of 20-25 brix is good. And assuming your 10% dilution measured 10 brix, indicating the jug close to 100 brix, a 1:5 dilution should get you close. But, I would actually dilute it a little more to 1:7, allowing it to finish lower. Remember, you can’t use the refractometer once fermentation starts. You must use a hydrometer.
ss
[/quote]

Thanks you some great info here. A hydrometer is on the shopping list. I've got lots of cheap molasses available so I'll try these dilutions and see what happens. I'm hoping to get some fresh cane juice too when the harvest season starts so that should complicate things nicely! I heard it starts to self ferment pretty much as soon as you chop it down :wtf:
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

Yummyrum wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:28 pm From a supplier of Molasses .

1779440D-24B2-4546-ABB7-717284645890.jpeg
Cheers yummy, great to see this info. It would be interesting to get some of the local stuff analyzed at some point.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

The Baker wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:23 pm Some experienced rum makers like to judge the molasses by sticking a finger in and tasting it.

Geoff
I was surprised at the taste of the stuff I got, it tastes good. Like licorice. I was expecting some kind sulfurous salty mess.

Image


This is another supply I found, I don't think I'd let my worst enemy taste this one though.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

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When I get a new batch of molasses, I assume it's about 50% fermentable sugars and put down a wash taking the OG, then the FG, and using them to get the ABV. For the next wash, if it was too low, use more, too high, use less. You can use the ABV to calculate the initial sugar if you want to and have kept accurate records of everything relevant.

OG and FG are important, they don't accurately measure the amount of sugar in the wash, but the difference is useful and the rate of change in SG tells you how the ferment is progressing. Be aware that they also measure the gravity added by the non-sugars in the molasses, which often has newbies thinking their wash has stalled.

The best test of molasses quality is sticking your finger in it and having a taste. I've done that and come home with twice as much molasses as I intended to buy because it was so good.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by NZChris »

Wheelup wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:15 pm This is another supply I found, I don't think I'd let my worst enemy taste this one though.
What did it taste like?
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

NZChris wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:35 pm
Wheelup wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:15 pm This is another supply I found, I don't think I'd let my worst enemy taste this one though.
What did it taste like?
I didn't try this one, only saw a picture. It looks a very different colour to the one I've got here much more muddy as opposed to the darker almost golden brown of mine.

The one I ordered also tastes great but it's pretty much the only one I've tried so I don't really have a frame of reference apart from the wifes shop bought imported one from 'the health food store' which tastes almost exactly the same.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

NZChris wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:34 pm When I get a new batch of molasses, I assume it's about 50% fermentable sugars and put down a wash taking the OG, then the FG, and using them to get the ABV. For the next wash, if it was too low, use more, too high, use less. You can use the ABV to calculate the initial sugar if you want to and have kept accurate records of everything relevant.

OG and FG are important, they don't accurately measure the amount of sugar in the wash, but the difference is useful and the rate of change in SG tells you how the ferment is progressing. Be aware that they also measure the gravity added by the non-sugars in the molasses, which often has newbies thinking their wash has stalled.

The best test of molasses quality is sticking your finger in it and having a taste. I've done that and come home with twice as much molasses as I intended to buy because it was so good.
That's great advice thank you very much. Do you have any particular taste notes to look out for when it comes to good molasses? or is it just the sweeter the better? I've heard about saltiness and the minerality of the molasses being something, can't quite remember if it was good or bad...too much info over the last few weeks!
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Some of you guys are really over thinking this IMO.....make a wash n run it.....all of this tasting molasses and talking wont make rum .All mollases averages around aboutish 45-50% sugars.
The big commercial guys dont use the fancy stuff......it wouldnt be commercialy viable.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

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If you are getting your molasses from Australia, you should be ok, but I've had stockfood molasses from Paraguay that smelled strongly of bagasse and that rum didn't start to come right for a couple of years. Even then, I was only using 10-20% in a blend, never drinking it on it's own. I think I still have most of it somewhere. I have noticed a hint of it in a couple of commercial rums, but only a hint, which is fine, maybe even desirable. A newbie distiller making his first rum out of that batch of molasses might be disappointed. I recognized the smell and taste straight away as I have worked in a sugar mill and you can smell it in the crushing area, but I was given the molasses to see what I could do with it, so gave it my best shot. After that experience, I wouldn't pay good money for molasses with that fault, but given it for free, I would have another try.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I doubt that any Newb to making Rum from molasses is going to tell good from bad from one taste or smell ...they have no bench mark to compere to.
Doing is learning.
99% of folk here would never have even smelt a breeze coming off a Mill....its not something you forget quickly....its distinctive to say the least....personally I love that smell , always have , even before I started distilling.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:04 pm Some of you guys are really over thinking this IMO.....make a wash n run it.....all of this tasting molasses and talking wont make rum .All mollases averages around aboutish 45-50% sugars.
The big commercial guys dont use the fancy stuff......it wouldnt be commercialy viable.
Overthinking! I'm good at that. You are of course right doing it is how to learn.

The main reason for looking at different molasses is to learn and get a good idea of what works and doesn't. Like I said there's loads of sugar mills here and cane is everywhere, I'd expect some to be of better quality and taste to others depending on how its been grown and harvested and how efficiently the sugar mill is its come from. Ideally I'd like to get to a point where I could tell something by tasting it as some others can, but I know that won't really happen until its been fermented and distilled.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Saltbush Bill »

I also.live close to sugar mills....damned if I can taste a difference between molasses from different mills.
Unless you get some particularly bad stuff it will all work.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

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You're more likely to get nasty molasses where you have a lot of small scale operators. I suspect it comes from being greedy in the crushing area. Wetting the bagasse before putting it through a second set of rollers might be the culprit.

The juice I've managed to squeeze out of my cane should make nice rum, but I don't have the gear to press it quickly and efficiently. It smells and tastes beautiful when you squeeze a sample out of a piece of cane, but try putting it through a garden chipper, then pressing the juice out and it smells strongly of bagasse, a smell that persists in rum for a very long time. My theory is that the bagasse smell comes from oxidation of the bagasse after crushing. That would explain why you can smell it in the crushing area and hoppers of a large Auzzie mill, but not in it's molasses.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

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Saltbush Bill wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:04 pm I also.live close to sugar mills....damned if I can taste a difference between molasses from different mills.
Unless you get some particularly bad stuff it will all work.
Agree , even the jar of Organic Molasses in Mrs Yummy's pantry tastes just like the stuff I get from the local rural store which gets it from a Mill up near Salty's neck of the woods.

I’ve been known to spend a motza on some Food grade Molasses in the hope it was going to be spectacularly different only to find it ended up just the same as my normal stuff
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by NZChris »

In NZ, the best molasses's for rums that I've had were from stockfood suppliers. When I first started, it only came from Oz, but now it's difficult to know where it came from. The only food grade Bundaberg molasses I've used was a bit boring by comparison to most of the molasses I've had.
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Re: Molasses brix and measurement question

Post by Wheelup »

Thanks for all the inputs guys its greatly appreciated
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